15 seconds (!) over 1500 after age 22, breakthrough in her 3rd year with BTC:
Houlihan, born February 1993, 1500 and 5000 m progression 2013 4:13.64 16:15.85 age 20 2014 4:10.89 16:11.63 age 21 2015 4:09.62 15:49.72 age 22, moved to BTC 2016 4:03.39 15:06.14 age 23 2017 4:06.22 15:00.37 age 24 2018 3:57.34 14:34.45 age 25 5000 m American Record 2019 3:54.99 15:15.50 age 26 1500 m American Record 2020 4:02.37 14:23.92 age 27 5000 m American Record, popped for roids (and banned from January 2021 - 2025)
Have you looked at Jenny Simpson's improvement? It's nearly the same.
14+ second over the 1500 after age 21!!!! 2008 4:11.36 21 years of age (1 month before 22), 2009 3:59.90 22 years of age 2010 4:03.63 23 years of age 2011 4:03.54 24 years of age 2012 4:04.07 - 26 years of age (her bithday is in August) 2013 4:00.48 - 26 years of age 2014 3:57.22 - 27 years of age
And in the 5000 she went from 16:15 at 19 to 14:56 at age 27.
15 seconds (!) over 1500 after age 22, breakthrough in her 3rd year with BTC:
Houlihan, born February 1993, 1500 and 5000 m progression 2013 4:13.64 16:15.85 age 20 2014 4:10.89 16:11.63 age 21 2015 4:09.62 15:49.72 age 22, moved to BTC 2016 4:03.39 15:06.14 age 23 2017 4:06.22 15:00.37 age 24 2018 3:57.34 14:34.45 age 25 5000 m American Record 2019 3:54.99 15:15.50 age 26 1500 m American Record 2020 4:02.37 14:23.92 age 27 5000 m American Record, popped for roids (and banned from January 2021 - 2025)
Have you looked at Jenny Simpson's improvement? It's nearly the same.
14+ second over the 1500 after age 21!!!! 2008 4:11.36 21 years of age (1 month before 22), 2009 3:59.90 22 years of age 2010 4:03.63 23 years of age 2011 4:03.54 24 years of age 2012 4:04.07 - 26 years of age (her bithday is in August) 2013 4:00.48 - 26 years of age 2014 3:57.22 - 27 years of age
And in the 5000 she went from 16:15 at 19 to 14:56 at age 27.
I don't think we need to look any more deeply into this. Schumacher and Flanagan have made a choice. They could have said "sorry Shelby, we think you're innocent, but the evidence says otherwise. You're banned from competing so we need to cut you loose so that our other athletes don't have to deal with the fallout." But they didn't. They have continued to treat Houlihan as an adjunct member of BTC. Their actions say very clearly that Houlihan matters over and above every other athlete on that team. They don't care that it gives people a reason to raise questions about Grant Fisher's US records or the big improvements made by GDS and Cranny. And all for what? So they can help Houlihan run time trials on her own? Such skewed priorities
Skewed priorities?
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
Reading comprehension must not be your strong point.
15 seconds (!) over 1500 after age 22. 14+ second over the 1500 after age 21!!!!
She was a 9:22 steepler, and that was her primary event then. She finished 8th in the world at age 21. Do you really think her 1500 in Lucerne right off the plane was the best she could’ve done? Simpsons big breakthroughs were at age 21-22 not mid-20s. That is far more normal. Mo Katirs progression is frankly more explainable than Shelby’s but your friendship with Jerry is clouding you on this.
15 seconds (!) over 1500 after age 22, breakthrough in her 3rd year with BTC:
Houlihan, born February 1993, 1500 and 5000 m progression 2013 4:13.64 16:15.85 age 20 2014 4:10.89 16:11.63 age 21 2015 4:09.62 15:49.72 age 22, moved to BTC 2016 4:03.39 15:06.14 age 23 2017 4:06.22 15:00.37 age 24 2018 3:57.34 14:34.45 age 25 5000 m American Record 2019 3:54.99 15:15.50 age 26 1500 m American Record 2020 4:02.37 14:23.92 age 27 5000 m American Record, popped for roids (and banned from January 2021 - 2025)
Have you looked at Jenny Simpson's improvement? It's nearly the same.
14+ second over the 1500 after age 21!!!! 2008 4:11.36 21 years of age (1 month before 22), 2009 3:59.90 22 years of age 2010 4:03.63 23 years of age 2011 4:03.54 24 years of age 2012 4:04.07 - 26 years of age (her bithday is in August) 2013 4:00.48 - 26 years of age 2014 3:57.22 - 27 years of age
And in the 5000 she went from 16:15 at 19 to 14:56 at age 27.
Your point is?
We have to put this into context. It's not just about the 15 or 14 seconds.
In 2008 Jenny was primarily a STEEPLER. She was also a COLLEGE JUNIOR (she's old for her year). She qualified for the Olympic team as a steeper, and I believe set the American record that year. Jenny only ran 4:11 in the 1500 probably because it was not her top focus. With Shelby, the 1500 was ALWAYS a focus for her in college. It can be reasonably assumed that Shelby graduated college with a 4:09 it was the absolute best she could do in the event. With Jenny, still a junior in college, trying to qualify for the Olympics in the steeple, she probably didn't run very many 15's and didn't really get to bring her best self to the event yet.
Jenny entered 2009 as a 22 year old and a COLLEGE SENIOR. At this point she FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HER COLLEGE CAREER shifted her focus to the 1500, where she saw a massive improvement becoming the first collegiate athlete to dip under 4 for the 1500, a tremendous achievement.
From COLLEGE GRADUATION into her PRO CAREER she only saw TWO SECONDS of improvement over a period of 13 years, while she focused primarily on the 1500 alone.
Shelby's progression is way more suspicious than Jenny. She improved a ton over a VERY short amount of time, and nearly all improvement was done in her pro career. Also, it's important to remember that Jenny was a college phenom. She was runner up in NCAA XC twice, an American record holder and USA champ as a college athlete, the first under 4 in the 1500, once she really focused on it. She had a ton of hype that Shelby, who had a good career but a far from dominant one in the NCAA did not come in with. It is far more believable that Jenny would have the success that she had than Shelby given their NCAA careers.
Also, ultimately...SHELBY TESTED POSITIVE. Her progression is suspicious because, and say it with me, SHELBY. TESTED. POSITIVE. Is it possible Jenny doped in her career? Sure. Is it possible she was doping in college? Yeah, I suppose so. But Jenny never tested positive. Shelby did. That's the huge difference in these athletes.
I don't think we need to look any more deeply into this. Schumacher and Flanagan have made a choice. They could have said "sorry Shelby, we think you're innocent, but the evidence says otherwise. You're banned from competing so we need to cut you loose so that our other athletes don't have to deal with the fallout." But they didn't. They have continued to treat Houlihan as an adjunct member of BTC. Their actions say very clearly that Houlihan matters over and above every other athlete on that team. They don't care that it gives people a reason to raise questions about Grant Fisher's US records or the big improvements made by GDS and Cranny. And all for what? So they can help Houlihan run time trials on her own? Such skewed priorities
Skewed priorities?
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
They have to live in reality. What actual tangible evidence do they have that she is innocent and that this is a "tragedy of the utmost proportions?" What systemic failure actually happened here?
It wasn't a "trace amount" and it was likely synthetic. She didn't even order a pork burrito and they tried to hide that fact. The chances of that much nandrolone getting into the meat supply is zero to none. Idk why you are still out here schilling for her the way you are. It's honestly a bit sad to watch. There is no actual evidence she was screwed over. None.
Interesting to see her leave while citing Shelby as the reason. If she was 100% confident that her and her team are clean, the talk about Shelby being guilty shouldn't bother her. I have lost so much respect for BTC since all this has happened, and I'm sure many others have, too. Hard to believe everyone else is clean, seeing how they allow a banned athlete practice with/hang around them as if nothing happened.
Especially with Shalane - I've been a big fan of hers since forever, but clearly she's more concerned about the times Shelby's hitting in practice than having the public know she's coaching an athlete caught doping. Practice what you preach - she's said before how it matters who you're around and now she's tossing that value out the window. Not a good look and definitely #not good for the sport.
This is why I said it was a weak move and may come back to haunt her. It's almost as if she wasn't believing in the team/coach to make her better
since you singled out jenny Simpson's times you should know that she wasn’t a 1500m runner UNTIL senior year. she was a steepler.
the lack of critical reasoning is astounding
Indeed, it’s not like Rojo isn’t familiar with Simpson’s career.
Progressions are a bit beside the point. The press conference, trials and continued coaching of a banned athlete are the big issues here and it’s reasonable for GDS to raise the point. And, Not too long ago, this site made a big deal of athletes (hurdlers, I think) meeting with a banned coach. Tryst seemed like a serious issue. But Now I guess that all would have been ok at the time if the athletes just told LRC that they sincerely believed the coach was an ok guy (no matter the strength of that argument).
Go GDS! Makes me an even bigger fan of her. Seems like she has way more personality than the other BTC people and also she actually likes to race. Hopefully we'll see her on the track more often now.
I don't think we need to look any more deeply into this. Schumacher and Flanagan have made a choice. They could have said "sorry Shelby, we think you're innocent, but the evidence says otherwise. You're banned from competing so we need to cut you loose so that our other athletes don't have to deal with the fallout." But they didn't. They have continued to treat Houlihan as an adjunct member of BTC. Their actions say very clearly that Houlihan matters over and above every other athlete on that team. They don't care that it gives people a reason to raise questions about Grant Fisher's US records or the big improvements made by GDS and Cranny. And all for what? So they can help Houlihan run time trials on her own? Such skewed priorities
Skewed priorities?
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
Stop trying to split hairs. Wada is doing a wonderful job of banning cheats and as for not being strict? They should be stricter and ban those they think are cheats and let them try and sue.I want Wada to carry out their liability and be stricter.
I don't think we need to look any more deeply into this. Schumacher and Flanagan have made a choice. They could have said "sorry Shelby, we think you're innocent, but the evidence says otherwise. You're banned from competing so we need to cut you loose so that our other athletes don't have to deal with the fallout." But they didn't. They have continued to treat Houlihan as an adjunct member of BTC. Their actions say very clearly that Houlihan matters over and above every other athlete on that team. They don't care that it gives people a reason to raise questions about Grant Fisher's US records or the big improvements made by GDS and Cranny. And all for what? So they can help Houlihan run time trials on her own? Such skewed priorities
Skewed priorities?
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
Once again you are stating in so many world S. Houlihan did not ingest P.E.D.s with intent. No one pounds the desk with such fervor and passion regarding a P.E.D. case unless one believes strongly a particular family member or friend is not guilty. What is wrong with you? You would have looked better if you had not posted on this thread.
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
Once again you are stating in so many world S. Houlihan did not ingest P.E.D.s with intent. No one pounds the desk with such fervor and passion regarding a P.E.D. case unless one believes strongly a particular family member or friend is not guilty. What is wrong with you? You would have looked better if you had not posted on this thread.
I agree; all those suspected of cheating should banned for ever.We must be strict; let them prove the are clean.
I don't think we need to look any more deeply into this. Schumacher and Flanagan have made a choice. They could have said "sorry Shelby, we think you're innocent, but the evidence says otherwise. You're banned from competing so we need to cut you loose so that our other athletes don't have to deal with the fallout." But they didn't. They have continued to treat Houlihan as an adjunct member of BTC. Their actions say very clearly that Houlihan matters over and above every other athlete on that team. They don't care that it gives people a reason to raise questions about Grant Fisher's US records or the big improvements made by GDS and Cranny. And all for what? So they can help Houlihan run time trials on her own? Such skewed priorities
Skewed priorities?
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
Schumacher has responsibilities as a coach to ALL of his athletes. He has decided that the one athlete that has failed a drug test is worth more than every single other athlete ont that team. A clean break would have allowed BTC athletes to put the issue behind them, but with Houlihan hanging around every performance by Fisher, Cranny, GDS, etc comes with insinuations that they run for a group and a coach that doesn't take doping seriously. GDS can't just celebrate running a 5000m national record, she also has to answer for the actions of her teammate. That's not fair on those athletes and it's a situation brought on entirely by Schumacher and Flanagan. If they believe in Shelby, they can support her in private, but she should in no way be associated with BTC. And it's absolutely sickening that they prioritize one athlete who has been proven to be a doper in court over all those clean athletes. I feel sorry for Fisher that his achievements already come with a significant amount of side-eye.
Also, your issue on tainted meat is clutching at straws. It's not for WADA to solve a problem in the US food supply chain, it's for the US to deal with, maybe better advice and education for athletes. Maybe ask why if the food supply is such a problem in the US, how come ONLY two T&F athletes have tested positive as a result? (I'm excluding Houlihan, as should you, as she only claims her PED came from trained meat, the evidence actually showed that was extremely unlikely).
Final point on BTC and the group avoiding the gray-zone - why don't the group commit to list every single supplement that each athlete is using and any TUEs that they have? There's been a lot of talk about Schumacher's use of thyroid meds in the past, and he also sent athletes to Doc Brown. There's a lot of smoke around that group that they could do with addressing
Let me make sure I understand this. You are seriously advocating that if they truly believe she's innocent and being ROYALLY screwed over that they still cut bait for PR reasons? My God. That's sick. I would want no part of a team like that.
If I thought someone was innocent, I would not cut bait with them at all. Period. If you truly believe she's innocent, then this is a tragedy of the utmost proportions. The anti-doping movement is ruining the lives of one of the all-time great US runners.
The priority would be to a) show loyalty to your greatest female athlete and b) try to make sure the system is changed so this doesn't happen again.
Them standing by her doesn't give people a reason to question Grant Fisher at all - the positive test already did that.
If you believe they think she's innocent, I think they should be praised for sticking by her and not cutting bait which would be the easy thing to do.
Now I liked part of your quote. I wish they when this came out said something along the lines of the following,
"We 100% believe Shelby Houlihan is innocent, but the evidence reveals she tested positive and technically under the rules you are responsible for what is in your body. We don't know how she could have tested positive and the burrito truck is our best guess. Given that Shelby is now the third prominent US Olympian to test positive potentially from a tainted US meat supply, we are calling on WADA to do a comprehensive study of the matter. Nike will be donating $1 million to lead the research. We at the BTC believe 100% in a clean training. In fact, our lack of comfort with the grey area is one of the reasons why we split with the NOP."
Schumacher has responsibilities as a coach to ALL of his athletes. He has decided that the one athlete that has failed a drug test is worth more than every single other athlete ont that team. A clean break would have allowed BTC athletes to put the issue behind them, but with Houlihan hanging around every performance by Fisher, Cranny, GDS, etc comes with insinuations that they run for a group and a coach that doesn't take doping seriously. GDS can't just celebrate running a 5000m national record, she also has to answer for the actions of her teammate. That's not fair on those athletes and it's a situation brought on entirely by Schumacher and Flanagan. If they believe in Shelby, they can support her in private, but she should in no way be associated with BTC. And it's absolutely sickening that they prioritize one athlete who has been proven to be a doper in court over all those clean athletes. I feel sorry for Fisher that his achievements already come with a significant amount of side-eye.
Also, your issue on tainted meat is clutching at straws. It's not for WADA to solve a problem in the US food supply chain, it's for the US to deal with, maybe better advice and education for athletes. Maybe ask why if the food supply is such a problem in the US, how come ONLY two T&F athletes have tested positive as a result? (I'm excluding Houlihan, as should you, as she only claims her PED came from trained meat, the evidence actually showed that was extremely unlikely).
Final point on BTC and the group avoiding the gray-zone - why don't the group commit to list every single supplement that each athlete is using and any TUEs that they have? There's been a lot of talk about Schumacher's use of thyroid meds in the past, and he also sent athletes to Doc Brown. There's a lot of smoke around that group that they could do with addressing
I think USADA have said that there have been over 30 cases of innocent contamination.
Athletes must grow their own food and never eat out.That is their responsibility to stay clean.
Also the food authorities have to change their regulations to bring the level of contamination down to Wada detection levels. This will increase the cost of food but we must stop cheating at all costs.