Katelyn Tuohy vs Natalie Cook at 5k who wins?

The Olympic 5k standard is 14:52, WC standard is 14:57. Anything below that, especially the Olympic standard, is world class.

It's a good thing we haven't got to Touhy v Efraimson, or Touhy v Decker as hsers yet.

High school times are generally considered grades 9-12 and summers between and after. Cain had not 'flamed out' during this high school period and the only thing that counts are the times she ran, not any choices she made during hs, opinion on talent, likability, or things that happened when she was older.

At every distance between 800m and 2 miles, Cain was faster than Touhy. At 5k and xc, where Touhy is generally perceived as dominant, it's really much closer, as Cain is right behind Touhy on all-time 5k list and had the often forgotten nxn #2 finish. Cain won a World Jr 3000, was 6th in a World Jr 1500m, won 2 USATF 1500/mile events for adult women, and made the WORLD final at 1500m. Tuohy never entered these events in hs and as a collegian has a 10th place at USATF 5000m. It's really not close, Cain was the better high school runner.

Now what is the 'everything Touhy did' to avoid what happened to Mary Cain? KT attended hs and competed. KT attends college and competes. There's nothing proactive or special in that equation that takes any thought, time, or effort to 'avoid what happened to Mary Cain.'

Lastly, yes Cain ran a fast 800 record, but the USA champs at 1500/mile, the world final at 1500m, and the World Jr 3000 Gold are much more important to her legacy.

Cannot agree. Yes an impressive resume. Obtained by signing with Nike, being coached by Salazar, and throwing her longevity in the sport out the window.

What KT did not do is perfectly obvious, and it goes to the heart of what happened to Cain. KT could have signed with a pro team like Nike and gotten coached by a pro coach. Her coach was even warned about Salazar. Cain went pro too early and had the misfortune of being coached by someone who had no clue about the physical changes, pitfalls and ebbs and flows that a high school age female runner experiences in the ruthless pro environment. It resulted in some great times, but it was sacrificing her future in the sport. Katelyn could have done the same thing, gone all in for short term goals and probably would have achieved even faster times than the records she ran in high school. Instead she was thinking long term. And here we are.

Anyway I always thought watching both of them come up that Tuohy had more natural talent 1500 and up. She just did not rush it. That unfortunately is Cain's legacy.

It's not like Cain is OJ Simpson, she had an opportunity and went with it, it worked out short term, but not long term. It was not a Faustian contract, where she agreed to sign away her longevity. You can count on 2 hands American women, who have ever made a world/Olympic final. Ironically, up until Purrier's world indoor 3000 silver, Mary's resume was still even better than Elle's.

You originally said Touhy did everything to avoid what happened to Cain. Now you have it right, she didn't do anything, she just did nothing. She signed a contract to go to NC st. She signed a contract with Mr. Flynn in 2022. She signed an NIL contract with Adidas for 2023. She did not sign a pro contract in hs, or prior to Adidas, because none were offered. Pro coaches are looking for foot speed, not an aerobic monster. (no pro offer for Baxter, Lane, Chmiel, Hutchins, Cook, Riggs either) KT just wasn't fast enough at 200, 400, 800 to attract a pro offer as a high schooler, plus she battled injury senior year.

So it isn't as if Touhy made a choice between short term success v long term success, she just went with the options she had available. Now, it's all worked out nicely, but no one in her team could be sure of that in March '21 when she ran her first NCAA xc and indoor for the pack.

It's also nice that you have an opinion about who has talent, and who is rushing their development. I unfortunately look at race results and give medals and accolades based on time and place. In the NCAA now, I think Appleton, Barnett, Thomas-UW and Butler have talent and I really like Brooke Rauber (she's a hoot!), but I have to watch the race and see others winning and accept those results.

Don't worry, I'm still cheering for KT. It's been an amazing run to see a longgg, heralded high school career become a longgg heralded college career, and it will be fun to watch how 2023-24 develops.

It's not like Cain is OJ Simpson, she had an opportunity and went with it, it worked out short term, but not long term. It was not a Faustian contract, where she agreed to sign away her longevity. You can count on 2 hands American women, who have ever made a world/Olympic final. Ironically, up until Purrier's world indoor 3000 silver, Mary's resume was still even better than Elle's.

You originally said Touhy did everything to avoid what happened to Cain. Now you have it right, she didn't do anything, she just did nothing. She signed a contract to go to NC st. She signed a contract with Mr. Flynn in 2022. She signed an NIL contract with Adidas for 2023. She did not sign a pro contract in hs, or prior to Adidas, because none were offered. Pro coaches are looking for foot speed, not an aerobic monster. (no pro offer for Baxter, Lane, Chmiel, Hutchins, Cook, Riggs either) KT just wasn't fast enough at 200, 400, 800 to attract a pro offer as a high schooler, plus she battled injury senior year.

So it isn't as if Touhy made a choice between short term success v long term success, she just went with the options she had available. Now, it's all worked out nicely, but no one in her team could be sure of that in March '21 when she ran her first NCAA xc and indoor for the pack.

It's also nice that you have an opinion about who has talent, and who is rushing their development. I unfortunately look at race results and give medals and accolades based on time and place. In the NCAA now, I think Appleton, Barnett, Thomas-UW and Butler have talent and I really like Brooke Rauber (she's a hoot!), but I have to watch the race and see others winning and accept those results.

Don't worry, I'm still cheering for KT. It's been an amazing run to see a longgg, heralded high school career become a longgg heralded college career, and it will be fun to watch how 2023-24 develops.

My grandmother could beat Tuohy…and she’s 103 with poor eyesight.

You did a nice job of summarizing the facts. I appreciate when people do that.

LOLL. Quite the spin. But Ok.

So nice in fact that he did it twice.

It happens to me also.