Up to the moment is nothing to add. I am going to continue after marathon double threshold training approach for about 8-10weeks, most probably in February 2023 will reply results after couple of planned 5K-10K races...👐
I understand the inclination to try this double threshold approach on the basis that it seems somewhat novel and may produce good results, but other than Bakken and the Ingebrigtsens, are there any other world class runners who train this way? I have tried something similar for a while, but never seemed to have much success with it. Recently I have been experimenting with Tinman style CV reps combined with very, very easy easy days (3 mpm slower than CV pace). This has been tremendously effective for me so far as a fast twitcher who has always been a better miler than marathoner. Recently ran very near my 5k PB off this training 4 weeks post COVID while running a very controlled effort. Excited to see how far it takes me.
If the training works who cares if you copy the style. If your going to Vegas and you can win $100k by utilizing someone's style of action wouldn't you do it?
Perhaps not relevant to the general thread, but Marius’ training knowledge was extremely advanced even as a high schooler. Lots of that knowledge, including lactate measurement, came from the Norwegian national development program. Amazingly talented but also never saw anyone work harder. He was likely overtrained (and raced) at York before figuring it out later in his career.
I did a local interview with Marius during his time at York for the Elmhurst Press and he credits Newton with showing him the way to train to be an elite athlete. He emphasized how lucky he was to have connected with Newton and would not have run at all if he didn't like the coach.
Marius came to York as an exchange student with no real intention of running. He hadn't even heard of York, the AFS sponsor however, saw Marius' background in cross country skiing and running. The sponsor knew of York and connected Marius to the high school. Marius' PB's when he came to York were not impressive; 1:57 for 800 and 4:15 for 1500 while running club in Norway. This was all conveyed to me from Marius himself.
His xc skiing background was a big factor in his early development, Newton's training enhanced it to where he was the best runner in Illinois. It also showed an ugly side to Americans as he endured chants of "USA...USA..." by opposing teams and fans. I personally witnessed one adult berate Newton at a meet charging that Marius was recruited by him.
Marius' PB's at York were very good, however not extremely great, running 8:57m/4:09m/1:51m. He never set any York records and didn't win state xc (he went hypoglycemic with a 100 meter lead, lost the lead in the last half mile and collapsed in the chute)
Did Newton create Marius? No, once he got to college (Indiana) he trained under Sam Bell who coached guys like Spivey, Deady, Kennedy. I never found out why he left Indiana after one year, among the rumors were his visa expired, Bell was retiring, he was homesick, or wanted to get financial backing from Norway. But Newton certainly was an early part of his development and for the better.
I'd also point out for those criticizing Joe Newton that he based his training principles from those of Joe Vigil, so if you're criticizing Newton you're also criticizing Vigil. I could also tell Marius was a very intelligent and focused athlete and returned to York for the memorial service after Newton passed away.
So is that there current accepted idea for the "fast twitch" athletes, is running the slower paces slower than the aerobic guys?
I know tinman would talk about how the longer runs take a toll on the fast twitch runners, but wasn't sure if that means, you slow down, or cut volume, because he also mentioned that this type of runner thrives on faster running.
I understand the inclination to try this double threshold approach on the basis that it seems somewhat novel and may produce good results, but other than Bakken and the Ingebrigtsens, are there any other world class runners who train this way? I have tried something similar for a while, but never seemed to have much success with it. Recently I have been experimenting with Tinman style CV reps combined with very, very easy easy days (3 mpm slower than CV pace). This has been tremendously effective for me so far as a fast twitcher who has always been a better miler than marathoner. Recently ran very near my 5k PB off this training 4 weeks post COVID while running a very controlled effort. Excited to see how far it takes me.
Are there any world class runners doing Tinman style CV reps combined with very easy days?
So is that there current accepted idea for the "fast twitch" athletes, is running the slower paces slower than the aerobic guys?
I know tinman would talk about how the longer runs take a toll on the fast twitch runners, but wasn't sure if that means, you slow down, or cut volume, because he also mentioned that this type of runner thrives on faster running.
Good question, not only Tinman noted that for fast twitch runners their easy runs must be even further more slower than for slow twitch and aerobic monster runners. Marius Bakken mentioned that double threshold method is more suitable for slow twitch runners and for fast twitch need more adjustements in training, it is very interesting from training point and might be a reason why some methods are work better for you and does not work for your friend, for example....
Some runners here, including myself, had noted that super easy runs +CV intervals (aka Tinman training copy)+not super long run is better for them than easy+moderate/threshold approach+super long run...
So is that there current accepted idea for the "fast twitch" athletes, is running the slower paces slower than the aerobic guys?
I know tinman would talk about how the longer runs take a toll on the fast twitch runners, but wasn't sure if that means, you slow down, or cut volume, because he also mentioned that this type of runner thrives on faster running.
Good question, not only Tinman noted that for fast twitch runners their easy runs must be even further more slower than for slow twitch and aerobic monster runners. Marius Bakken mentioned that double threshold method is more suitable for slow twitch runners and for fast twitch need more adjustements in training, it is very interesting from training point and might be a reason why some methods are work better for you and does not work for your friend, for example....
Some runners here, including myself, had noted that super easy runs +CV intervals (aka Tinman training copy)+not super long run is better for them than easy+moderate/threshold approach+super long run...
As a more fast twitch athlete, I am interested in this as well. How would Marius change the double threshold model for fast twitch athletes? When I overload the aerobic work (hard long runs, too much threshold, etc.) and neglect faster running, it doesn’t work for me. If I trained exactly how Jakob does, I would not get the same results.
It has to be noted that the Ingebrigtsens experimented, adapted, and changed the training over the years, using Henrik as a guinea pig, before arriving at something very close to the present routine that brought Jakob to best in the world at 1500m and 5000m. What they are doing now may be based still on the Bakken program--which itself was worked out from his training with Peter Coe, his examination of Seb Coe's training logs, and study of many other programs--but it has altered in various respects to the present form.
Marius Bakken was a star at York from near the beginning. He tripled at the state track meet, winning all three, I believe. He was in the paper a lot in Chicago at the time. He didn't go off to compete in any national level competition, to my knowledge, so his times were run against Illinois competition in the absolute worst era for American high school distance running, some time between 1995 and 1998, while I was in Chicago. So, at the time, he was among the best in the nation in the mile and two mile. There was a year there in the mid to late 1990s when maybe only one person in the country broke 9.
Does anybody experienced with innacurate lactate reading from finger? I have some troubles while taking samples from fingers, during relatively outside temperature around +15 degree celcius, my hands are always quite cold due to might be poor blood circulation🤦♂️. How do I suppose to take samples in order to minimize the error?:
1) use gloves?
2) maybr take from leg?
3) from ear is not possible to do so fast when you are running along and withing 60s rest.. and you need to carry a mirror too, it is very unusefull... 😏
Are there any world class runners doing Tinman style CV reps combined with very easy days?
Touché. I would argue that there probably are lots of world class guys who do 10k pace reps with varying degrees of regularity. That being said, we are not world class athletes and I I’m not sure it’s a great idea to model amateur training after what the best runners in the world are doing.
Marius Bakken was a star at York from near the beginning. He tripled at the state track meet, winning all three, I believe. He was in the paper a lot in Chicago at the time. He didn't go off to compete in any national level competition, to my knowledge, so his times were run against Illinois competition in the absolute worst era for American high school distance running, some time between 1995 and 1998, while I was in Chicago. So, at the time, he was among the best in the nation in the mile and two mile. There was a year there in the mid to late 1990s when maybe only one person in the country broke 9.
As I posted he was an unknown talent when he came to York. He had never run American cross country and those times he had coming in are accurate although he had an extensive cross country skiing background. He actually had to miss the first couple weeks of practice because late August in Norway is a lot colder than late August in Illinois and he had to adjust to the temp difference. If you're using imperial distances he didn't break 4:10 in the mile nor 9:00 for two miles, running 4:09/4:10.44 and 8:57/9:00.11 and he didn't win a triple at state, he took second in the 800. His one day triple went 9:07.34/1:53.78/4:12.40, in addition to running prelims in the 800/1600 the day before. He then competed in the old Keebler International track meet hosted by York where he was beaten in the 800.
He took 28th at NCAA Cross Nationals his first year at Indiana.
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