BRYNN BROWN RUNS 9:39 3200M!!!

astro wrote:

As to how LR wrote it up, so what? It would be a travesty if this was certified as a record for very significant reasons that you cannot refute.

Alright I've sat here reading this nonsense for long enough.

Up till about this year, the fastest runner I knew of was Ryan Riddle (graduated a few years back), and that was because he went to a high school not far from where I lived. Then I started seeing things about Nico Young, Tuohy, etc., so I really, really don't care in the least about who wins versus who.

But this is getting stupid.

Astro/7empest, nobody (intelligent) claims that it should be an official record. Obviously its not, it wasn't an official, sanctioned race.

And yes, she did have pacers. But if the drafting effect is negligible out of a certain range, and if for 3 out of 8 laps she was out of range, then she only drafted for 5/8.

And I don't know what fantasy world you are living in, but if you can run it in a time trial and are a truely competitive racer (in other words, all these people- Brown, Tuohy, etc. If you've broken 10 minutes for the two mile as a girl or run like a 4:0~ something mile as a guy, you definitely count) then you are capable of equal or faster in a race. Maybe not a 9:40 every single time, maybe its a 9:45, but with decent competition, like you've said, any one of these girls could go 9:35. I'm not going to speculate on who would win that matchup, but saying that a time trial is "fake" and easier than actually racing is just stupid. No other word for the concept. And no race, especially not a two mile, is ever a "solo race". If you start lapping people, thats someone to run down, someone to focus on. Maybe nobody to draft off of, but really, if you can run a time, you can run a time. If you were going max effort and drafting, maybe you couldn't match it, but its nearly impossible to max effort for a time trial- not enough adrenaline, no competitors, and a whole lot of other factors.

And sorry to the other guys, but maybe next time look further than wikipedia.

Ultimately, this time shouldn't overshadow a 9:47 (if thats what it was [I'm not actually sure what it was]) run in a race without competition, but it should probably at least be acknowledged- it was a really, really fast time, and the idea that any of the other fast ones would do it is less than likely, especially since none of them laid down any insane peaking workouts.

There was a quote-unquote "obvious assist", but that wasn't a real race, with the adrenaline, competition, and screaming teammates. It was a time trial, which just isn't possible to max out in. There are a very few runners who do better in time trial situations, and they usually don't get to that level, because that level requires actually competing. Honestly, next track season, it's very likely that 9:45s start happening, at least until the nationals stage with some competition.

But really, 7empest (work on your spelling please) and astro, realize you look just as stupid and stubborn as the people you keep insisting are stupid and stubborn.

Oh so assuming everything else was equal being able to draft wire to wire off a faster runner specifically assigned to do that had no beneficial effect whatsoever, the science of drafting be damned. I'm convinced. Right.

And you keep thinking Tuohy has the record, when in fact it is MARY CAIN.

astro wrote:

Oh so assuming everything else was equal being able to draft wire to wire off a faster runner specifically assigned to do that had no beneficial effect whatsoever, the science of drafting be damned. I'm convinced. Right.

not saying there was no benefit, I'm saying that there was no way it was a maximal effort. It's a time trial. What I'm saying is that in a competitive race setting, with even one person ~5-10 seconds back, she could probably do it again. And everything else isn't equal, that's half my point. If that was an official race with two runners specifically designated to let her draft, then I'd agree wholeheartedly, but it was a time trial.

Bottom line is that here you had a platoon of faster male runners assigned to shuttle her from start to finish, to slow down to keep her in drafting position, to position themselves the entire race to afford maximum draft protection. Incidental drafting will happen in races, but never to this extent and without the collaboration of the other runners. Not even a pacer does this. It was obviously set up to achieve the fastest time possible. They certainly thought it would benefit her time. But according to you, jokes on them. They allegedly did not need to do anything. Just a moment of inspiration. Ha!

It is complete idiocy to pretend that the conditions of that "work out" were anyway analogous to an actual race, the absence of other safeguards and controls aside, or that no assisted time boost was conferred. Sorry. The draft effect is not controversial.

But stick with the idea that this was no different than a normal race. What happens when real racing resumes and we see the same 9:50s? Will it still be just a moment of athletic inspiration that any top two miler could have achieved on a good day. Or will you admit the obvious, that the set up created an assisted time? Doubtful.

Oh so now there was a benefit. Well the established literature suggest at least 1 second per lap at 4:30 mile pace. Now we have to extrapolate for the slower mile time vs. distance. Plus the avoidance of energy loss, which at a longer distance like 3200m or two miles is very significant. My guess is we are talking a boost of 12-15 seconds. Is that unfair?

astro, let me give you an example of what will happen: Alan Webb.

Brynn Brown will head to Eugene for the Prefontaine Classic, where the meet will put on an Invitational Diamond League 2 Mile.

Brynn Brown will then be dragged to a national record 9:29 performance for 2 Miles and you will probably drop dead of a heart attack.

This exact scenario plays out every single year for the elite of American high schools. If you need more examples, let me know. Lukas Verzbicas also did this recently, etc.

Nope. I will congratulate her were it to happen. I certainly place a solo record above a high school record achieved in a pro race where the runner can incidentally draft off faster pros. Just a harder achievement. But this set up was completely over the top. Like I said before when someone tried to make this comparison, it would be like every single runner in the pro race running to assist the high school runners time. At the time I pointed out that Nico had a chain of pro runners to draft off of when he set the 3000 record. But they were not running and positioning and pacing themselves just for his benefit or maximize his protection. They were running there own race.

I reckon the advantage of having personal pacers is a rough trade for the disadvantage of not having race day "mojo" for adrenaline (which is a strong performance-enhancer). I look at this effort as being as good as say, a state meet final.

Maybe the words are messing you up. This was not a time trial or a race. Brown herself and her coach and college boys did this solely to run a time, not to see where she is at (if it was she would be by herself).

Bottom line, her coach set this up to run a particular time, not a time trial to see where she is at. All I’m saying is that she would not have ran this time in a race. Astro is right it would have been in the 9:50’s. And there are at least 4 other girls who would have run this fast or faster.

I’m pretty sure a time trial and running for a time are the same thing. Like student has said, very few people are saying that this is a national record. But Astro and tempest your lack of understanding is just baffling. We have already proved to you that drafting is negligible in this race, and so what if she had pacers. You do realize that pacers are legal in races. If your qualm is that the pacers were men, I can assure you that it would be much easier to get some high school kids from the local area to pace her than trying to convince collegiate or professional athletes to drop or modify one their workouts to accommodate brynns time trial. Someone else mentioned a pre classic two mile. And likely the same thing would happen as in this recent effort. We all know this isn’t a record and yet you keep saying that we are defaming other elite girl runners because of their efforts in races. Do you not think brynn has tried equally as hard in this race? If not, then would she have been able to run faster? You just keep babbling on about how this is not comparable to other runners, but in almost every way, it could be.

astro wrote:

But this set up was completely over the top.

Which part? The 6 total people involved? A teenage girl being paced by a teenage boy on an empty track? A girl trying to PR during a pandemic?

The travesty!

You're a clown, bro. You're anonymously diminishing the efforts of a teenage girl due to a technicality (in your mind at least).

Re-evaluate your life.

She is the new queen of high school distance running. No doubt that she would break 9 in a 3k pro race right now. All records are going down next year and possibly this year if she can get something set up like the boys are doing in California.

macdaddy wrote:

astro wrote:

But this set up was completely over the top.

A teenage girl being paced by a teenage boy on an empty track?

Just for clarification, the guy that paced her is a junior in college. So he is not a teenager.

The idea that this would even be considered as a record is absurd. This was a draft assisted time done under conditions that never apply in a real race.

Jeljo wrote:

And you keep thinking Tuohy has the record, when in fact it is MARY CAIN.

I keep saying that then people bring up Tuohy's mile record and the 3200.

when in fact Cain ran 4:24, 9:38, and if we are being honest she ran 15:45 simply to get a usa qualifier. That wasn't even a all out effort.

Also since I brought her up no one diminishes her runs because she ran with pros. Pro race>>>highschool boy pacing in my opinion if we are talking about beneficial pros to running a PR.

Brown's 9:39 is amazing. I htink the pacer probably saved her about 5-6 seconds in actual effort. Can't speak on how windy that track was but it was an empty stadium with one rabbit. She could have simply dropped out when it got too tough if she didn't have the ability to run those times.

Proved? All you have proved is that science, physics and commonsense are not your strong suite. Being paced and draft protected to this degree is not negligible. It means at least 1 second per lap. And it never happens like this even in pro or paced races. In a real race do faster runners make sure you are carefully wedged between them the entire race? Does the lead runner slow down to ensure that you stay in drafting range? Does another runner come off the side line the final lap and pace you from your hip ? The idea that you think you have made even the slightest coherent argument or that you have demonstrated something is laughable. This was an assisted time set up to boost her time beyond what she is capable of in a real race, which would have been in the 9:50s again. Not to mention the absence of a single safeguard or control. People pushing for it as some sort of record are trying to cheat the legitimate record holder.

She has the ability to run in the 9:50s. The way it was set up and after all the extra assistance, that was assisted down to 9:40, but without it it would have been another 9:55ish time. That is how drafting will work.

Not to beat a dead horse but the following video summaries the studies. Essentially a 4 minute miler gets a 4 second per mile boost by drafting alone and a 6 minute miler a 6 second boost, etc:

https://youtu.be/3xp6D1MP2hg

Now here there wasn't just standard drafting. For most of the race she was carefully wedged between two male runners. This likely increased the draft effect.

Even assuming just a 10 second boost from drafting, there is another very important element. Which is that the wire to wire drafting saved a lot of energy. In a 3200 that is extremely significant. It is the difference between still having the energy to maintain pace and to kick the last two laps. It is the difference between her being able to keep up with the runner who jumps on at the end to pace her from her hip. And recall that the male runners were running solely to keep her in ideal drafting range. She did not have to catch them or keep up with them. The lead runner even repeatedly slows down to make sure she stays in contact.

So all and all I think my estimate of a 12-15 second time boost is probably dead on. This was a 9:50s run boosted to 9:40 by how the run was rigged. As any type of record, calling it a travesty is more than fair.