I read it like this comes out of the Italian courts, and not Renato.Note Alessandro Donati is one of the "good" Italians who help started WADA after a career long struggle fighting doping in the Italian federation.See here for long but interesting history:http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2000/anti-doping-the-fraud-behind-the-stage/
balls wrote:
How naive does Renato think people are? He started doping AFTER winning the Olympics.... how convenient.
Yes, the story is over. The performances of many athletes from that era will always raise questions but,after this, I don't expect anyone in leadership to look back voluntarily. IAAF does not care . They barely care about Kenya and Erhiopia now. And people like Ashenden just agreed to disagree and move on.
rekrunner wrote:
What do you mean by "no longer"? Did Canova ever comment on Radcliffe?
An alternative thought is that the Paula angle of the story is actually long dead (maybe even DOA) for everyone with a real name in the sport.
It's even dead for the UK media, the ones who added Paula to the story, after the last WADA IC report failed to be concerned.
It's only kept on life support in this anonymous message board by people with no name. (According to some, with special thanks to misguided me -- who simply said the leaked data is not strong enough evidence to provide support, and there remain plausible non-doping scenarios.)
Unless some new real evidence comes along, who knows, like blood bags from Paula linked to Dr. Fuentes, or an interview with Oprah, this "justice will come in full force" talk is just wishful thinking.
dlk wrote:I think it says something that Canova no longer comments on Radcliffe. She is beyond dirty at this point and it will come out in full force within 5 years.
Lance would have gotten away with it if he really would have retired and hadn't made a come back into triathlon. He just couldn't resist the limelight.
Likewise, Paula would get away with it if she just quietly faded into the background. But no, she now wants to be in a leadership position and stay in the spotlight. Her ego is too big for her brain.
She'll keep up the her hypocritical anti-doping charade and end up caught in a bigger lie than Coe can cover. Keep the pressure on and she'll slip up and bring about her own downfall.
Exactly... it's all about her ego, the limelight, the sweet Monaco way of life, the feeling of being untouchable reinforced by her friend Coe, IAAF cleraing her name and so on...! She will get caught because of this! Mistakes are going to happen! The lies and ties are being exposed!
Greedy like a barnacle wrote:
Lance would have gotten away with it if he really would have retired and hadn't made a come back into triathlon. He just couldn't resist the limelight.
Likewise, Paula would get away with it if she just quietly faded into the background. But no, she now wants to be in a leadership position and stay in the spotlight. Her ego is too big for her brain.
She'll keep up the her hypocritical anti-doping charade and end up caught in a bigger lie than Coe can cover. Keep the pressure on and she'll slip up and bring about her own downfall.
So according to Rekrunner EPO doesn't definitely improve performance in the marathon.... have you listened to any first hand comments from athletes about how EPO affected them, they all say the same thing, the difference was 'frightening'. So if it doesn't work for marathon runners it mustn't work for cyclists either in events like the Tour. You are so misguided it's frightening.
EPO is one thing, but autologous blood transfusions brouth (and still brings) athletes to a new level of fitness... Just read Tyler Hamilton's testimony (his book) about this and how Fuentes was the key to his new found success in the big tours! As well as Lance, Contador, the Schleck's, Basso, Mayo, Riis and so on....After an ABT, he could attack when there was no more in the tank, and push some more when he hit plateaued... then push some more... get it?His description of his doping regimen, mostly based on EPO and testosterone microdoses (throughout the year) and ABT before the start of races and hard stages (he basically had three ABT's during the Tour the France) is very useful to undestrand how athletes used ABT to peak and how they escape testing!If Funtes and his « mental affiliate » didn't get greedy (buying a blood storage freezer) and didn't mix up the blood bags, maybe we wouldn't talk about Operation Puerto 10 years later!It would be very useful to know who is associated with the 89 blood bags found in his fridge! We could then connect the dots and many rjm33's conspiracies would look more like the truth!
mental case REk wrote:
So according to Rekrunner EPO doesn't definitely improve performance in the marathon.... have you listened to any first hand comments from athletes about how EPO affected them, they all say the same thing, the difference was 'frightening'. So if it doesn't work for marathon runners it mustn't work for cyclists either in events like the Tour. You are so misguided it's frightening.
I don't have all these anecdotes. Were any of these athletes talking about the marathon? I don't talk about shorter distances like the 1500 to the 10K, or cycling or race walking, but running a marathon, where efficiency and glycogen management play a significant role.Everyone talks like it's accepted that 3-4 minutes are guaranteed, when it has never been measured. Where does that number come from? It is not enough to extrapolate from 3k or 5K or 10K, which have higher oxygen demands.Maybe I'm wrong -- is there any EPO study on marathon performance? Are there any measurements where we can generalize for elite performances?
mental case REk wrote:
So according to Rekrunner EPO doesn't definitely improve performance in the marathon.... have you listened to any first hand comments from athletes about how EPO affected them, they all say the same thing, the difference was 'frightening'. So if it doesn't work for marathon runners it mustn't work for cyclists either in events like the Tour. You are so misguided it's frightening.
Eddy H, and Christian H, discussed their improvements quite freely.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/sports/runner-christian-hesch-describes-doping-with-epo.html
http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/the-confessions-of-eddy-hellebuyck
Unfortunately, most runners either completely shut up after getting caught, or pretended they just started using. In some cases of convicted drug cheats, like Rita or Dieter or Ramzi, one can pinpoint the time of their performance jump, and somewhat safely view that as the beginning of the (increased?) doping. Maybe Rita's case (at age 32ish!) is the example where the estimated 3 - 4 minutes came from. Others, like Paula and Mo, also experienced a comparable sudden jump in their performance somewhat late in their careers, but blamed increased mileage + more situps for that.
Of course it's not just EPO, but also various steroids + blood transfusions. Among other things, EPO is aiding recovery, and thus enables marathons to sustain higher mileage.
Having said that: I fully agree that the 3 - 4 minutes are just a wild guess. I think I myself estimated 1 - 2 minutes from EPO + transfusions earlier in this thread, but I am too lazy to look that up, and it was a guess anyways.
If it works for a 5k runner (look at the glut of amazing 5k times from 10-15 years ago that nobody gets near now) and it works for cyclists riding 120 mile stages I would hazard a guess it works for marathon runners. Something happened in the marathon almost overnight where athletes went from 63/64 halfways being the upper limit to 61/62 being the norm and not just by a handful but by 20-30-40 athletes. Think all those unknown Ethiopians dropping 2.04/05 in Dubai are clean??
This post is from another thread but it works well here also...
Are you a relative of rekrunner?
Switek wrote:
I am probably the only poster here on letsrun that has served as a citizen witness to executions (Virginia).
Most states do not conduct them at midnight any longer, but rather closer to 6 pm, for the sake of witnesses, courts and overtime considerations. Most states require the inmate to select their special meal from what is available in the prison kitchen on the thirty day menu, no outside orders will be placed. In Texas, special meals were forbidden in 2011 after inmate Lawrence Brewer (convicted for the James Byrd dragging murder) ordered an excessive menu and then refused to touch anything from it.
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7205321#ixzz46D1D30ql
rekrunner wrote:
In the case of the marathon, real data regarding the "PE" benefit of any PED is scarce, if not non-existent. The strongest arguments that EPO works in the marathon are "proof by example" (see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_examplefor the limitations of this kind of proof), which at best show that EPO can work, but these examples cannot always be generalized to all cases.
Interesting. Two honest questions, then:
1) Can it be conclusively proven that altitude training is performance-enhancing?
2) can it be conclusively proven that any PED is, in and of itself, performance-enhancing? Maybe Renato's claim that it makes you believe and train harder is the real performance enhancement?
rekrunner wrote:
Unless some new real evidence comes along, who knows, like blood bags from Paula linked to Dr. Fuentes, or an interview with Oprah, this "justice will come in full force" talk is just wishful thinking.
Have to agree with that!
And we all know that those blood bags will never see the light of day.
cleans wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Unless some new real evidence comes along, who knows, like blood bags from Paula linked to Dr. Fuentes, or an interview with Oprah, this "justice will come in full force" talk is just wishful thinking.
Have to agree with that!
And we all know that those blood bags will never see the light of day.
+1, unfortunately.
Matthew Kisorio only got banned for nandrolone, but he describes medicine which makes one feel "smooth" while running that increases oxygen in the blood. He is referring to EPO, which Rita Jeptoo got banned for. They were both coached by Berardelli and managed by Rosa.
Anabolic steroids and EPO are both used in Kenya.
Another famous Rosa runner, Sammy Wanjiru also has a history of "malaria".
Wanjiru started 2006 on a sour note as he lost his World Half Marathon record to Ethiopian track and road running legend Haile Gebrselassie (58:55) on 15 January. A relatively unsuccessful 2006 for Wanjiru was put to rest early in 2007 when he reclaimed his World Half Marathon record in Ras Al Khaimah, UAE, on 9 February (58:53). This mark was however not ratified since EPO tests were not conducted on athletes.
To hammer the point home, Wanjiru returned to lower that time on 27 March in The Netherlands, setting the current best time of 58:33 as he won the Fortis City-Pier-City Half Marathon in Den Haag.
Wanjiru is clearly a man who keeps his word. Two days ahead of the 33rd edition of the City-Pier-City he had promised a World record. “I told the organisers that I want to cover the first ten kilometres in a pace of 27:30,†Wanjiru said of his race day agenda. “That is 17 seconds faster than I did during my World record race in February. I am in a very good shape. The temperature is nice here and I heard the course is very fast.â€
His mother works in a children home in Nyahururu and that is where he donated his $25,000 bonus for shattering the World record in Den Haag. “I'm gonna tell her now by phone about my World record and the $25,000 dollar they will get.†he said then.
In May, he won a 10,000m race in Kitakyushu (27:40.46) and the following month he was first in a 10,000m in Shibestu (27:20.99). Then came the national trials for Osaka on July 28 in Nairobi. He finished fourth behind Japan based duo Josephat Muchuri Ndambuki and Martin Mathathi and 2007 All Africa Games silver medallist Josephat Kiprono Menjo.
Wanjiru, who was recovering from malaria, had led the race until the last two laps, setting a blistering pace on a hot day at the Nyayo National Stadium track. He was included in the Osaka team but the decision was met with disquiet in the national team camp and a week later, he announced his withdrawal.
It seems like a lot of the best runners in the world get "malaria".
just a coincidence
EPO logue wrote:
If it works for a 5k runner (look at the glut of amazing 5k times from 10-15 years ago that nobody gets near now) and it works for cyclists riding 120 mile stages I would hazard a guess it works for marathon runners. Something happened in the marathon almost overnight where athletes went from 63/64 halfways being the upper limit to 61/62 being the norm and not just by a handful but by 20-30-40 athletes. Think all those unknown Ethiopians dropping 2.04/05 in Dubai are clean??
Also look at progressions: Rita Jeptoo- went from 2:26:25 at Boston to 2:19:57 at Chicago in 6 months in 2013. The winner of the Boston Marathon today, Hayle Lemi Berhanu- went from 2:10:40 in 2014 to 2:05:28 in 2015 at Dubai to 2:04:33 in 2016 at Dubai. He runs at a Gianni Demadonna managed training camp in Ethiopia.
Tesfaye Abera ran 2:09:46 at Mumbai in 2015 and won Dubai in 2016 in 2:04:24. He is managed by Jos Hermens.
Also Atsede Baysa- #1at Boston today and #2- Tirfi Tsegaye also both train at the Gianni Demadonna camp in Ethiopia.
nothing to see here
An article on EPO and performance increases from Ross Tucker you might find interesting:
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/the-effect-of-epo-on-performance/
My personal guess is 2 to 2.5% improvement for elite athletes.
There will never be a study of EPO improvement for elite runners. We have to guess. My guess is that it led to an increased number of great performances but maybe not all great performances are doped. It could be less systemic than cycling (I hope) but it's probably not a small percentage either. Maybe I am naive. I have been skeptical ever since we started to see so many low 59 and sub 2:06 runners. Meanwhile no one is even close to the 3k to 10k track records anymore (steeple is pretty close) - now that I said that Ventolin will show up to talk about the one fast Paris 5000 that he says disposes everything but which was still 9 seconds off WR pace. [quqote]rekrunner wrote:I don't have all these anecdotes. Were any of these athletes talking about the marathon? I don't talk about shorter distances like the 1500 to the 10K, or cycling or race walking, but running a marathon, where efficiency and glycogen management play a significant role.Everyone talks like it's accepted that 3-4 minutes are guaranteed, when it has never been measured. Where does that number come from? It is not enough to extrapolate from 3k or 5K or 10K, which have higher oxygen demands.Maybe I'm wrong -- is there any EPO study on marathon performance? Are there any measurements where we can generalize for elite performances?
mental case REk wrote:
So according to Rekrunner EPO doesn't definitely improve performance in the marathon.... have you listened to any first hand comments from athletes about how EPO affected them, they all say the same thing, the difference was 'frightening'. So if it doesn't work for marathon runners it mustn't work for cyclists either in events like the Tour. You are so misguided it's frightening.
[/quote]
I didn't say "elite". An improvement from the current situation would be data on *any* marathon runner. Still not perfect, but better.I agree -- 3-4 minutes is a guess. It is pointless to entertain scenarios or be confused by some thought that a "clean" Paula could run 2:11-2:12 if she *really* doped.Ross Tucker echos exactly I"m saying -- real data is scarce.In cycling, Tyler Hamilton said that EPO wouldn't help one cycling day events. The real advantage was not improving performance, but reducing the cost of hard efforts, so the next day can also be just as hard. With EPO, cyclists don't have to hold back -- they can attack and still have energy for the next day.The best we can do seems to be one-off "examples" like Rita Jeptoo, or Eddy Hellebuyck. While anecdotes of "feeling invincible" are moving, they are not measurements that support a ballpark 3-4 minute advantage. I note here that Eddy didn't run his PB with EPO. And he's not even in the top 500. To counter Rita Jeptoo, Matthew Kisorio actually got worse when he took steroids and EPO. To absorb this contradiction, the reaction is typical -- Kisorio is lying, and anyone is naive to think he was honest about when he started doping, because if he cheated, he lies.The Sunday Times gives us a clue about the difference between marathons and shorter events. When they collected "suspicious" statistics, the 1500m was "54%", the steeple, 5K, and 10K were around "30%", while the marathon was "11%". Suspicious values seem to be an exception for IAAF class athletes in the marathon.When you look at the top 100 times for evidence of EPO and blood doping, we find maybe 2 or 3 (each for both men and women). Compare this to short events like the womens 1500m and 3000m, or to Tour de France cycling, and we get much higher incidences of athletes not testing positive, but still otherwise linked to doping.Marathon times (just like pre-2009 blood data) are difficult to compare, as there are many significant factors that can impact performance: race conditions, course, and tactics, and recent injury. It is not like shorter track events, where the distance is exact, the course is always flat, and the events run more frequently, and there are world record attempts. To measure the impact of EPO, you have to factor out all these other non-doping effects.At ARRS.com, some numbers guys calculated that *ALL* of the elite women in London 2003 ran approximately 1:45 minutes faster than they expected. That's their best estimate of the significant advantage solely due to race day course and race conditions, that was common to all of the elite women. They correct Paula's best marathon times to 2:17:10 (London 2003) and 2:18:08 (Chicago 2002). Still significant, but now a much smaller gap.In order for women to achieve better times, they need to mimic the men, ever since Geb started world record attempts: run more marathons fast from the start, with pacemakers, in a large pack. See what happened in Boston 2014, where Flanagan led a sizable pack of women up to 30K, and 4 women (including Jeptoo) broke the previous course record. How many women's marathons play out like that?I have no doubt that getting a reliable figure for EPO improvement in the marathon will be nearly impossible. This does not make it correct to walk away from this difficulty with a conclusion that EPO must benefit elite athletes to the tune of 3-4 minutes.
Yup yup wrote:
There will never be a study of EPO improvement for elite runners. We have to guess. ...
You're kidding right? I appreciate you're entirely wedded to a wait and see analysis, but this reads as if athletes only ever perform in isolation on a given day. Of course an ability to train harder day after day after day would give advantages when it came to race day.
Absence of formal study also ignores a huge volume of evidence showing that athletes have and will cheat to get an edge and the clandestine nature means it'll never be formalised. That does not mean it doesn't exist.
[quote]rekrunner wrote:
In cycling, Tyler Hamilton said that EPO wouldn't help one cycling day events. The real advantage was not improving performance, but reducing the cost of hard efforts, so the next day can also be just as hard. With EPO, cyclists don't have to hold back -- they can attack and still have energy for the next day.