Yes
Yes
Fila appears to be coming out with several shoes that I think may end this debate. They are "everyday trainers" built on a "performance last". So they will give you the feel of flats with the cushioning and support of trainers.
Somebody said earlier where's the proof that cushioning is good and then went on to say something about the foot absorbing the impact causing injuries, umm.... you're an idiot, you answered your own question. Cushioning is always good unless there is so much that it causes instability.
There are 3 shoes with varying levels of support for different foot needs, the Veloce is the middle one which I have and I love it. The other two wont be out until next year I think.
The guy that did the study with videotaping foot strike, about how barefoot people land more flat footed, yeah, that's called pronation. I think that was discovered about a million years ago. That is why there are these "injury boots" out there today. Excessive pronation (landing flat footed) causes a whole slew more problems than just cushioning. And the reason the foot has to land like that is because it is being forced to absorb an enormous amount of force. We are able to land on our heels when we have shoes on is because they are so good and absorb all of that nasty impact for us.
People on this board that train in flats all the time likely have perfect biomechanics and will not suffer the injuries occured by others fat-assed runners. You will however, get stress fractures like it is your job. If not yet, just wait. Bones can only get so strong and stay that strong for so long.
And the flat-footed, 200+lbs runners I know that train in flats?
Actually, you are referring to landing flat foot as pronation and excessive pronation. This is incorrect. Pronation refers to the dynamic action of inward roll as the foot interacts with the running surface. You are correct that excessive pronation is not a cushioning issue, as there is actually too much dispersion of impact, which results (as you say) in instability. One question, why would we want to be able to land on our heels if it is not our natural gait?
Theres not a lot of room to run in flats.Houses would be better or even Gymnasiums.
nice theory wrote:
I like the theory that our legs and feet are designed to absorb shock - true , except , the evolution took place running on grassy fields in Africa, and not running on pavement or worse, concrete. What say you to that bare foot minimalists?
I say Abebe Bikila.
"Guys posting here saying they train 100-120 miles a week in flats without injury ARE LYING TO YOU PEOPLE. They want nothing more than to injure as many competitors as possible. And don't tell me about Geb or even PR. Last I checked there aren't too many world champions posting on this message board."
Why would anyone lie about this? You are an idiot. Pompous, yet clueless!
Jaguar 1:
I’m posting this as a response to you to get your attention because, if you don’t mind, I would love to see your research on biomechanics.
I came in to this thread very late that perhaps nobody’s reading this any more. I copied it in my file and have been enjoying the argument of both sides. I see trackhead is fighting his position as usual. Good on ya!
I’m no PhD or foot doctor or scientist. But I figured I’ve been around enough and know some people enough that I may be able to clarify some of the arguments here. First of all, here’s my opening story. When one of the audiences asked Arthur Lydiard at this clinic what he should eat the night before the marathon race, Lydiard said, “Don’t eat fish.” I could see some people taking notes and all. The same person asked him why. Lydiard said, “I don’t like fish and it gives me a stomach trouble.” I think it’s a huge mistake to generalize things. I’m sure some Japanese runners might eat sushi the night before the marathon and did all right. What works for some, may not work for others at all.
Lydiard was, in a sense, minimalist. I have spent lots of time discussing about shoe with the old man. The last time I was with him, it was in New York City marathon 2004. I showed him the racing flats (very similar to what Noguchi wore except there is wear-reinforcement on the bottom) I just received from Japan (via ASICS guy from Japan). He absolutely loved them (and laced them up for me). We had a couple of potential sponsor offer from other shoe companies but I literally went begging to ASICS because I think they have the best shoes in the world and Arthur always endorse their shoes (“Japanese are marathon runners and they know how to build running shoes,” he always said) and I don’t care what Washington Post said about him wearing expensive ASICS shoes on his last tour. We were at least tried to convey the correct message. Lydiard himself was a heel-striker. His later shoes, Converse AB series, actually reflect that. He liked to have adequate cushion under the heel. But the thing you’d have to understand is that “adequate heel thickness” in the 60s and 70s is VERY much different from the adequate heel thickness of today. He was the first person (before HRE) who introduced me to train in flats (1990)—something I was actually already doing when I was in Japan and moved away from since I moved to the US.
As trackhead mentioned, I had a terrible Achilles problem that put me almost out of running completely for 5 years. Nothing worked; PT, ointment, massage, rest… But when I went back to basics (thanks to HRE and his unspoken pressure!) and wore flats (I was about 20lbs overweight by this time) and started running up and down on XC trail, the pain almost disappeared. A while back I did a tempo run on a hilly course in flats and my right thigh took some beating so I wore “training shoes” from Japan for a while to alleviate pounding. My Achilles pain came back. Went back to flats, the pain disappeared. From these experiences, even if Arthur Lydiard came to me and told me to run in thick bulky shoes, I will not do that (of course I know he wouldn’t). Even if the current world record holders in the all events from 800m and up publicly stated that training in bulky stability shoes is better for you, I still refuse because I know it’ll hurt my Achilles. Same can be true with some individuals and it’s silly to say “this is it and there’s no other way.” Do what works for you and don’t listen to anybody else if you feel so strongly about it.
Most Japanese elite runners do train in flats—at some times, but not ALL the time. There is a time that they wear shoes with “adequate” cushion. Of course, again, as trackhead pointed out somewhere, their “cushion” shoes, which I have several pairs, people in the US consider “racing flats” (at least that’s the feedback I get every time I wear those Japanese “cushion” shoes here in the US). Japanese absolutely endorse flat-footed running style today. But not until coach Tom Tellez came to Japan and taught them proper running technique. Until then, they were huge believer of heel-to-toe running. Seko was a perfect example of heel-to-toe running style—yet he ran all right. On the other hand, Naoko Takahashi’s coach, Yoshio Koide, is an advocate of flat-foot landing. Now 15 years after coach Tellez’s running technique clinic in Japan, majority of top coaches and runners have practiced flat-foot landing but some still run heel-to-toe such as Takaoka. Would he run faster if he changes his style? I guess 2:06:16 is not good enough for some of the readers here… He carries (I’m not trying to be sexist) like “a girl” but he runs pretty well. So why change it? There are some runners even in Japan at the top level that I feel they could improve if they correct their running style but without completely understand why they run the way they do, it’s like Bill Rodgers’ flapping right hand—it was compensating his one leg longer than the other.
I had very limited association with Kenyan runners but I have had some. It was interesting to me that they were absolutely adamant about training on grass—they didn’t want to run on asphalt or sidewalk. And when I took them to the running store, they wanted well-cushioned shoes. Well, they do certain style of circumcision and I don’t really approve it nor want it operated on mine (!) but this could be the same case, they might just want to run certain ways and the choice of training shoes might be one of them???
I don’t understand the mentality of “so-and-so doesn’t have fast times so he/she doesn’t know anything about running.” If the knowledge equals performance, you can forget everything I say here! In fact, sometimes some of the best performers can be ignorant. To this day, I’m still convinced that one of the reasons why Geb couldn’t run 5000m at Atlanta in 1996 after winning 10000m was because he didn’t wear socks that his feet got beaten up or blistered up. Up until then, I never saw him racing without socks. Granted, he may have been training like that but changing something that you’re not used to can be deadly. As far as I’m concerned, one of the most knowledgeable persons when it comes to running shoes was the late Ron Daws. Here was a man who didn’t have much physical talent that he had to use his head to get ahead. His marathon PR was very modest 2:20 (which incidentally would have placed 2nd or 3rd at this year’s US marathon championships at Twin Cities) but he made the Olympic team. By the way, he was a die-hard minimalist.
I have read “Explosive Running” by Dr. Yessis and absolutely loved it. I endorse the Running Times article except for two things: that sequential pictures of Noguchi does not look sequential and are misleading. She is in fact more of a heel-striker than flat-footed runner. Now, in reality, she may swing her foot back so quickly that she’s actually landing more flat-footed although it appears heel-landing, I don’t know. While I advocate and endorse flat-footed running style, to say that made a difference between Noguchi and Deena might be a bit of a stretch. I think the one who has the best style is Ndreba. I also disagree with the type of strengthening exercises he (Dr. Yessis) recommends but that’s a completely different subject…
what do you minimalists think about the mizuno wave-rider? I absolutly love it, but I don't really know how high the heal is. I think that wave thing makes the mizuno shoes more high-healed than they need to be.
ive run several weeks of 100+ miles a week in flats and plan to work up to 120 this upcoming season. i used to have at least one major injury a year in the orthotics/stability shoes days but since i converted to flats, i havent had to take a single day off because of injury.
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Trackhead = do you work in Cali? I am out here a couple times a month for work (san clemente area). would love to pick your brain on shoes if you are at a shop nearby
Hi Nobby, thanks for the input! You seem to be a very knowledgeable and meticulous follower of running.
I have yet to do anything with my Biomechanics paper from last fall; I don't recall if I mentioned it on this thread, but the most shocking part from the video clips I took was how a change from shod to barefoot running can significantly influence the way you run, from a heelstrike to flat footed landing. What I'd be interesting in doing now is retaking the video clips under 3 conditions-- trainers, flats, and barefoot. I actually believe I may be landing more towards my forefoot in flats (as compared to last fall) because the forefoot of my shoes seems to be wearing down significantly faster. It may also be because I'm overstriding less (landing with weight underneath me); it feels like my barefoot running technique is translating over to the times I'm wearing flats.
Regarding the Kenyans, I have a friend who spent 6 months over there last year at Lornah Kiplagats camp. He also has been training with her while she's been up in Boulder. He says most of the Kenyans are training in worn-out old shoes that have been donated. He said he donated several pairs of his shoes before he left. They frequently have local races, and a lot of the younger runners race barefoot. On the Japanese, yes, I saw them up in Boulder wearing what we would consider flats, and they were running everywhere at all times of the day!
Yeah, I also am not too keen on the drills/stretching/strengthening and such recommended by Dr. Yessis. I don't know how much of that really translates over to improved performance for distance runners. It's cool, though, that he at least has a chapter on barefoot running plus close-up pictures of a barefoot landing-to-midsupport (showing the arch depressing).
Ok, well I'm off to class and teaching!
I am not that far from San Celemente, at the moment. Feel free to come on by. You can find me in Temecula
951-587-8450
OK, gotcha! I will prob not make it this trip, need to head back to the east coast on Friday early AM.
I will be back out here in two weeks. Are you usually at the Temecula location or Carlsbad?
Nobby that is a Letsrun first: comparing or making an analogy of cirumcision to training shoes.
Wow. Talk about no pain no gain.
(cringe)
these days usually Temecula -- 6 days/week so you have a good chance of finding me
I am thinkng about transitioning to h streets. Wondering what shoes could begin the progression?
It depends what you've been running in. I think the Asics Paw is a good start, but if you've been in really thick soled things, you may need to have a higher heel. I'd got to a shoe store, not a running store, and get a light, flexible "jogger's shoe." The best one I've seen lately is the Nike Dart III, but I'm not a fan of Nike. Adidas always has a few shoes like that, but I can't think of their names.
To whoever asked about the Mizuno Wave Rider, I think everything Mizuno has is higher heeled than I like. But if it's light and flexible, you're starting on the right path. Lydiard really liked a Mizuno shoe, the Super Sonic, which is now gone.
And I'll bet I'm one of the few people on this board who can remember getting circumcized.
I agree with your skepticism about Yessis training and strengthening exercises Nobby. I have his book and while I think it is good I think it is kind of geared a little bit more toward sprinting, almost football like. Just my opinion. I find the photos very interesting too look at and I think his solution to the problems in your stride is helpful because you can see something you may possibly be doing wrong and have an idea on what you can do to strengthen the area and fix it. A friend who runs at a top 10 D1 school says their almuni, who now run for Nike endorse Yessis's methods.
I guess it all depends on what ya believe / think.