Canova: "By two more marathons, [Bekele] will be under 2:03"

did ventolin congratulate himself yet?

'Agreed

The 1500 title and marathon world record

trumps bekeles cross country because of the overall range

'

Marathon world record fair enough but comparing indoor 1500m to world xc title!. The best long distance runners in the world are running the world xx, the best middle distance runners are not running the world indoors

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Agreed

The 1500 title and marathon world record

trumps bekeles cross country because of the overall range

'

Marathon world record fair enough but comparing indoor 1500m to world xc title!. The best long distance runners in the world are running the world xx, the best middle distance runners are not running the world indoors

Geb was the athlete who demolished the track distance records

Bekele merely followed

geb took almost 20 seconds off the 5000m

world record in the space of a few years

an incredible achievement given the stagnation prior to that point

some of you guys are not giving him full credit for his groundbreaking achievements when comparing him to bekele

agip wrote:

well apology is the wrong word, but it would be appropriate for odok and stinky pinky to at least acknowledge their errors and explain their new thinking.

oh agip, your reading comprehension is poor (and generally I like your posts, but in this case, it IS true)-

Odok and stinky pinky made 2 basic assertions. They were:

*Bekele is the GOAT *distance runner*, (they never said that he was already the Greatest MARATHONER of all time. never) AND....

* Based on the above opinion and his recent 2:05 marathon debut in less then perfect conditions (course, pacers, slight hamstring issue),combined with his outkicking of Farah at the 1/2 marathon, there is a very good chance that he will threaten or break the WR in the marathon in the near future.

That's it. And that view is apparently held by none other than Renato Canova, and they were agreeing with him.

So what errors did they make??

They made no specific predictions about the Chicago race. Did they?

Do you care to now "to acknowledge your error" (stating that they were wrong, about something that is not yet settled) in your above quoted statement? Really you should (this was not a: will 'Bekele set the WR in the marathon AT CHICAGO?' thread. No. It was a: Will Bekele set/threaten (i.e., run at least very low 2:03) the WR in the marathon in the near future? thread. AND: is Bekele the GOAT distance runner? thread. You answered a definitive "NO" to the first question, they answered "YES." You seemed to agree with them on the 2nd question. The first question will not be settled for several more years. You jumped the gun: Premature Celebration.)

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

(this was not a: will 'Bekele set the WR in the marathon AT CHICAGO?' thread. No. It was a: Will Bekele set/threaten (i.e., run at least very low 2:03) the WR in the marathon in the near future? thread. AND: is Bekele the GOAT distance runner? thread. You answered a definitive "NO" to the first question, they answered "YES." You seemed to agree with them on the 2nd question. The first question will not be settled for several more years. You jumped the gun: Premature Celebration.)

In fact, agip, if you a hint to what the thread was about all along, read the TITLE of the thread and the FIRST POST. It's all there.

So again, what errors were made by the 2 posters in question, and how have you been shown to be right? Based on the question at hand, neither has occurred. We won't know the answer for at least a couple more marathons for Bekele.

T Rex - I'll concede the point. You are more right than I am on the question of what exactly was being argued. Although I do think you are disregarding tone - when a poster is as aggressive and insulting as they were, they need to be that much more right in the end, or they deserve an extra serving of humble pie.

That said, it is not cool in any way for those two to disappear after the race - that's not sporting. They should come back to continue the argument.

But for the record, here are some factual errors made on the thread:

1) How many people in the world have ever ran faster in their debut? oh right, the WR holder and that is it.

-wrong – KB is 6th on the debutante list

2) He's never been "just another East African" despite his injuries and return to fitness.

–wrong. For the last few years and in particular yesterday, he has been exactly ‘just another East African.'

3) I believe Bekele will run a CR in Sunday but not a WR. He will then set the WR at Berlin next year.

-oh for 1 so far.

Yes, we can agree to disagree, however I would like to repeat some final points on this:

fan of US distance running wrote:

Geb has run faster at 1500m and has a world indoor title at the distance,

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:Well, to paraphrase you:

So what? One would expect a 5000m stud like Geb to be "good" at the 1500.

fan of US distance running wrote:

Your words, not mine.

Yes, they are my words, but a play on your words of:

"one would expect the 5k/10k record holder to be good at x-c" which was your response to people putting some serious weight on Bekele's UNPRECEDENTED, BEST IN HISTORY cross country career.

Once last time,

a) characterizing Bekele's ability/performances in cross as "good" and just "expect(ed)" is the understatement of the century, and completely undervalues what he did in this discussion of who is the GOAT. Furthermore....

b) then why was Geb such a failure, and in comparison to Bekele he certainly was, at cross if he TOO was a 5k/10k record holder?? If a Bekele-type record in x-c is expected of the 5k/10k record holder, then Geb's performances in this domain is a major disappointment and a stain on his overall record. Right?

c) lastly, if Bekele's record in x-c is not unexpected (and therefore apparently not worth so much in your eyes) because he was great at 5k/10k, one can easily turn that around and say: what is so surprising and unexpected about a 5k (and 2 mile) superstar like Geb running a good 1500?? As mentioned, this is not uncommon at all, with the likes of Komen, El G, Lagat, Farah, Aouita, Maree and others being great at both 5k and 1500 events. So what's the big deal?

Yes, running fast at 1500 AND setting the marathon WR, yes, very impressive. But as stated, Bekele, with less focus on these events, has run nearly the same as Geb at 1500, and has started out BETTER in the marathon. We will see if he can run sub 2:04 like Geb.

But this argument of: Geb has clearly the superior range is very overstated on your part. At this moment, Geb has a a VERY SLIGHT edge in the "range" category. Bekele's edge over Geb in X-C is ENORMOUS. And Bekele has further edges in:

5k/10k p.r.s

5k/10k longevity of records

head to head match-ups {counting only initial ones, not later ones}

(yes, Geb not in perfect peak of career, but not far off, and Bekele was likely a year or 2 shy of his absolute peak. Bekele easily beats Geb in these match-ups)

5k/10k doubles at WC's and OG's, something Geb only dared to try once, and failed to pull off

look I think they are virtually equal, with Bekele just slightly better. And yes, Geb's career longevity is worth something too. I just don't like you putting so little weight on Bekele's greatest ever X-C career, and so much on Geb's slightly better 1500 pr and indoor title in the event, something Bekele could likely have achieved against similar competition, and with a little focus in that event (proven by his 3:32 after-thought pr).

Can everyone agree that we're desperate for a bona-fide hero winner in the way we believe Bekele still can be? Kimetto is amazing as is Kipchoge, Kipsang and both Mutais, but for some reason those guys don't satisfy most of us, whether because they lack personality or because we aren't willing to invest the time into finding their personality. And the result is we desperately want Bekele to not just win at the marathon distance but dominate and set WRs in the same way he did on the track. This will feel like redemption of a sort, justification for staying with this crappy sport for so many years, and maybe even get us that sub-2 we dream of seeing. But Bekele is just as human as the next guy. And even with his talent, has enough miles in those legs that competing at the marathon distance for several years against the current crop is unrealistic. His talent is immeasurable, but he is, unfortunately, very human.

I'll agree with that and add that what I really want is someone with staying power, who wins for a full olympic cycle and does brave things consistently.

It's hard to root for a guy who runs three marathons and then is gone or not in contention anymore. Geb and KB stuck around for a long time and won a lot. Is there anyone like that anymore?

Wanjiru was in that category - tragedy for him and the sport when he died.

some comments to the post from T.R.:

To state that "Geb has a a VERY SLIGHT edge in the "range" category" also is some sort of understatement I would say...

It's definitely not a very slight edge.

Gebrselassie has won a GLOBAL TITLE over 1500m. Yes, indoors. But not against a weak field, which included a sub 3:30 athlete, an ex Olympic champion (over another distance) and an almost sub 3:30 athlete who also has one of the best sprint finishes in the history of the event to his name.

On the other side, he has set two WORLD RECORDS in the Marathon.

That's definitely not just a slight edge ober Bekele, who from his 4 international 1500m races which I know has "just" 1 win and who never was among the top 20 fastest Marathon runners. And to say Bekele has started his Marathon career better than Gebrselassie also is a bold statement. Would you also say Bekele has started his career better than Khalid Khannouchi ever did? Khannouchi has set a new World Record of 2:05:38 while beating Gebrselassie in his (Geb's) debut (and Paul Tergat, the men to break this record). So, Gebrselassie was beaten by his two record predecessors with one of the best times then. Is it really fair to look only at the times and not at all at the context? Would you also call - for example - Steve Jones a mediocre athlete (as one of the other posters here probably would do)? Jones has set a WR in Chicago of 2:08:05 and won another occasion in 2:07:13. With our standard today, these times are not special in any way, but they definitely were in 1984/85.

What Bekele could have done (and what he might do in the future) is not really important for the question, but what he HAS done. So far in the 1500m/Marathon combination it's WAY behind Gebrselassies achievements (who still has the most marks in the indoor list (which he used to ran as preparation for his record attempts) - over 15 years later).

On page 7 in this thread I have noted a few more points which should be observed, maybe you lookat them if interested.

I'm also always wondering why so many letsrunners don't mention at all Gebrselassie's other achievements like a Half-Marathon world title or a World record over the distance and many more. Not important? Well. But the XC short course is so important that it doesn't exist anymore and didn't exist (at world level) before 1998. Well, I wouldn't talk like that, just to give back some arguments.

And a last note: when people always mention the doubles of Bekele and that Gebrselassie hasn't (apart from '93) done this. Fair point. But why not listing the "doubles" which he instead did? Winning the global 10000m and than (after skipping the 5000m) setting the WR over the shorter event. Also not so bad...

NJ Possible wrote:

whether because they lack personality or because we aren't willing to invest the time into finding their personality.

Besides Kenenisa's modesty (which he shares with many others), I think I really like the fact he has lasted. When some runners do phenomenal things for just one or two years then fall off the radar, you just never get used to them.

coach.......... wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Agreed

The 1500 title and marathon world record

trumps bekeles cross country because of the overall range

'

Marathon world record fair enough but comparing indoor 1500m to world xc title!. The best long distance runners in the world are running the world xx, the best middle distance runners are not running the world indoors

Geb was the athlete who demolished the track distance records

Bekele merely followed

I was not talking about who was better or WR's just comparing the world xc and indoor 1500m titles

Coach Y wrote:Lopes was a great runner, an Olympic gold medalist who ran 2:07:12 on a perfect day. To say he could have run even one second faster is pointless, but to say he could have run two to three MINUTES faster is the mark of true mental deficiency.

MarathonMind wrote:

Apparently you are are unaware that immediately after his landmark race in 1985, Lopes himself said he believed he could have run two minutes faster. Not a far-fetched claim for a 27:17 guy.[/quote]

Almost every athlete states he could have run faster.

Renato has some highly unusual views on doping and the inefficacy of blood doping

He also at different times held contradictory views on Ma's Chinese army

One time he claimed they were all doped

but subsequently said they were clean

Having said all that there is no questioning his palmares as a marathon coach

Do you guys know how competitive World Cross Country is? How competitive 1500m indoors is?All this talk of any "impressive" value of 1500m indoors is crazy. It is meaningless on two counts:- It's indoors! Nobody is competitive indoors. 3:31.76 is #2 of all time?- Bekele has virtually the same 1500m PR as Geb -- there is no demonstrated "range" advantage on the "short" end.Bekele's cross country wins were also GLOBAL TITLES. World Cross Country Championship competition is WAY tougher than any 1500m indoors. And he had way more than 1.Every year someone wins the indoor 1500m GLOBAL TITLE. But no one has dominated World Cross Country the way Bekele did. Geb had a handful (six) of top 8 finishes -- very impressive -- until you compare it to Bekele."Tyrannosaurus Rexing" is spot on -- when talking about range, from 1500m to the marathon, Geb only has the one minute advantage over the marathon. "Slight edge" seems about right. Considering Geb is likely done, Bekele still has a couple of years to narrow that advantage, so the slight edge could dissappear, if Bekele stays healthy.If the descriptive measure is "impressiveness", I don't see any way of adding up a single 1500m indoors with two marathon world records (only 1 minute faster than Bekele's debut), and overcoming Bekele's domination of World Cross Country.

Throw in gebs longevity

And he took almost 20 seconds off the 5000m record

You do realise he smashed the record down from 12-58 to 12-39 almost on his own

That is epic world record breaking

Bekele improved it marginally

The exact opposite is true: 1500m(i) is contested every two years, the world XC champs was (in Gebrselassie's and Bekele's era) contested every year.

I don't think anyone thinks the 1500m World Indoor title is of higher value than the the world title in XC (long course). Has anyone said that? For sure the XC title is more important. But this was not the point at all.

Gebrselassie's times in the 1500m and the Marathon are not just a little bit better than Bekele's, but significant in both events: 0.59s and 1:04min - the first set indoors, which definitely is of a higher value than the same time outdoors (also maybe not by that much as all have thought). But that's not the main point. Gebrselassie has won a Global Title in the shorter event and has set two World Records in the longer. On the other side, Bekele has a 1/4 win loss record in the shorter event and never ranked under the top 20 in the longer. Yes, his marathon debut was very impressibe, but in these days it doesn't stand out in any way. The standard of the event just has improved enourmously in the last 10 years.

Just a question: if Gebrselassie would have won his debut in London in 2002 in - say - 2:05:30 (a WR). Would you also say Bekele's debut from Paris was more impressive?

Gebrselassie's success in the 1500m and in the Marathon (the combination) is absolutely unprecedented in the history of athletics. In combination with all the records like the Half-Marathon, he deserves a lot of respect, I would say. If Bekele has the same sort of capabilities (or even better) is not the point at all. So far he hasn't achieved a lot (relatively) over the two distances.

For me, this - in combination with all of Gebrselassie's achievements in between and the better win/loss record than Bekele and a career which lasted two full decades at or very close to the top - is enough that he still should be ranked ahead of Bekele. Others might differ, and that's also understandable.

One thing seems to be absolutely out of question (at least to me): we are talking about the two greatest distance runners in the history of athletics (the only challenger really is Paavo Nurmi, but the eras they competed are so different that an comparison is not very helpful at all).