Top Ten Greatest High School Runners (Boys)

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11 years ago 01/18/2014 8:59am EST

re: Laguna

Laguna wrote:
coach d. wrote:
No, Chapa did not run the world junior meet. Chapa beat Hulst three times over 10000 meters in 1975-6. The first two were on the track and the third was cross country.
In HS, Chapa & Hulst never raced in cross country.
They did meet twice in track, both at 10,000m.

In my hypothetical 1975 USA HS XC (Foot Locker/NXN), I have Chapa edging Hulst with Thom Hunt 3rd, Alberto Salazar 4th and junior Bill McChesney 5th.

Based on:

Top 2 milers in spring 1975

8:45.0 Eric Hulst, Jr, CA - also ran 8:51.8 and 29:11.2 for 10,000 (2nd to Chapa)

8:46.0 Ralph Serna, Sr, CA

8:51.0 Rudy Chapa, Jr, IN - also ran 8:52.6 and 29:11.0 for 10,000 (beat Hulst)

8:51.0 George Watts, Sr, VA

8:52.8 Tim Keough, Sr, IN

8:55.8 Bill McChesney, So, OR - also ran 29:27.2 for 10,000

US Junior Cross Country Trials, Jan. 1976

1. 22:48 Eric Hulst, CA HS

2. 23:08 Thom Hunt, CA HS

3. 23:09 Alberto Salazar, MA HS

4. 23:13 Ralph Serna, U of Cal-Irvine

Top 2 milers in spring 1976

8:44.6 Eric Hulst, Sr, CA - also ran 8:47.4, 8:52.6, 8:53.0 and 28:55.0 for 10,000

8:45.2 Thom Hunt, Sr, CA - also ran 8:47.4, and indoors ran 4:02.7, 8:52.4

8:51.0 Bill McChesney, Jr, OR - also ran 14:13.2 for 5,000 and 29:06.8 for 10,000

8:52.6 Rudy Chapa, Sr, IN - also 4:05.8 top outdoor mile, ran 28:32.8 and 29:09.4 for 10,000

8:52.6 Don Moses, Sr, CA

8:53.6 Mark Spilsbury, Sr, CA

8:53.8 Alberto Salazar, Sr, MA - also ran 14:04.8, 14:06.2, 14:08.0 and 14:15.2 for 5,000

NCAA Cross Country 1976

1. 28:07 Henry Rono, Fr, Wash St

9. 28:50 Rudy Chapa, Fr, Oregon

13. 28:58 Thom Hunt, Fr, Arizona

34. 29:24 Eric Hulst, Fr, Cal-Irvine

No more US freshman in top 50

11 years ago 01/19/2014 3:43am EST

re: jsully

jsully wrote:
Laguna wrote:
In HS, Chapa & Hulst never raced in cross country.
They did meet twice in track, both at 10,000m.
In my hypothetical 1975 USA HS XC (Foot Locker/NXN), I have Chapa edging Hulst with Thom Hunt 3rd, Alberto Salazar 4th and junior Bill McChesney 5th.
Based on:
Top 2 milers in spring 1975
8:45.0 Eric Hulst, Jr, CA - also ran 8:51.8 and 29:11.2 for 10,000 (2nd to Chapa)
8:46.0 Ralph Serna, Sr, CA
8:51.0 Rudy Chapa, Jr, IN - also ran 8:52.6 and 29:11.0 for 10,000 (beat Hulst)
8:51.0 George Watts, Sr, VA
8:52.8 Tim Keough, Sr, IN
8:55.8 Bill McChesney, So, OR - also ran 29:27.2 for 10,000
US Junior Cross Country Trials, Jan. 1976
1. 22:48 Eric Hulst, CA HS
2. 23:08 Thom Hunt, CA HS
3. 23:09 Alberto Salazar, MA HS
4. 23:13 Ralph Serna, U of Cal-Irvine
Top 2 milers in spring 1976
8:44.6 Eric Hulst, Sr, CA - also ran 8:47.4, 8:52.6, 8:53.0 and 28:55.0 for 10,000
8:45.2 Thom Hunt, Sr, CA - also ran 8:47.4, and indoors ran 4:02.7, 8:52.4
8:51.0 Bill McChesney, Jr, OR - also ran 14:13.2 for 5,000 and 29:06.8 for 10,000
8:52.6 Rudy Chapa, Sr, IN - also 4:05.8 top outdoor mile, ran 28:32.8 and 29:09.4 for 10,000
8:52.6 Don Moses, Sr, CA
8:53.6 Mark Spilsbury, Sr, CA
8:53.8 Alberto Salazar, Sr, MA - also ran 14:04.8, 14:06.2, 14:08.0 and 14:15.2 for 5,000
NCAA Cross Country 1976
1. 28:07 Henry Rono, Fr, Wash St
9. 28:50 Rudy Chapa, Fr, Oregon
13. 28:58 Thom Hunt, Fr, Arizona
34. 29:24 Eric Hulst, Fr, Cal-Irvine
No more US freshman in top 50

Nice assessment.

11 years ago 01/19/2014 9:14am EST

re: Laguna

My post is accurate, they raced against each other three times in 1975-6.In 1975, twice on the track and once in cross country in 1976, at the NCAA cross country meet. As a big time D1 cross country coach, I know they raced twice in high school on the track and never in cross country.

Laguna wrote:
coach d. wrote:
No, Chapa did not run the world junior meet. Chapa beat Hulst three times over 10000 meters in 1975-6. The first two were on the track and the third was cross country.
In HS, Chapa & Hulst never raced in cross country.
They did meet twice in track, both at 10,000m.

11 years ago 01/19/2014 12:21pm EST

re: coach d.

coach d. wrote:
My post is accurate, they raced against each other three times in 1975-6.
In 1975, twice on the track and once in cross country in 1976, at the NCAA cross country meet. As a big time D1 cross country coach, I know they raced twice in high school on the track and never in cross country.
Laguna wrote:
In HS, Chapa & Hulst never raced in cross country.
They did meet twice in track, both at 10,000m.

I guess, It just took a little clarification. Well done ;-)

11 years ago 06/22/2014 10:18pm EDT

re: Giddy

Giddy wrote:
Pretty much agree with this list through 3, but would change things after that.
I don't know why Ritz doesn't get more credit. He KILLED everyone in his footlocker wins, and that included having another guy on everyone's list in Webb. He ran 8:41 and 4:05 in high school only races, tied Lindgren's 5k in 13:44 and has a world junior bronze... His career is pretty much him winning everything he entered (other than a 3rd in world cc).
I think Webb's single accomplishment is better than any other Ritz had in HS, but in terms of career volume, I just don't think of him being as dominant as Ritz was.
Cheserek was great, but ahead of Ritz, I'd argue that his 8:39 isn't a strong enough performance by itself to put him over Ritz when you look at their careers side by side. Just an opinion.
Fernandez didn't win cross nationals, but his state meet record in cc is legendary, as is that 4:00, 8:34 double within 3 hours. That's an insane double for a school boy.
That being said, my updated list would be.
1.Ryun
2.Lindgren
3.LV
4.Ritz
5.Cheserek
6.Webb
7.Fernandez
8.Virgin
9.Jeff Nelson
10.Prefontaine
I could put Rupp on there at 10, but dislike putting a guy on there who ran all the lesser run metric records and had all that Nike backing, basically a professional high school athlete.

Agreed about Ritz. I think people forget how dominant he was. He ran and beat Alan Webb fairly consistently (forget if he won or lost their very close indoor two-mile race, but it was in ~8:44, from my memory), and Webb is easily a top five all time HS runner. As others have said, Webb's range was insane, but Ritz's distance dominance was the best at that time other than Lindgren.

11 years ago 06/22/2014 10:22pm EDT

re: did you jus see that holmes

did you jus see that holmes wrote:
AlwaysInjured wrote:
Why hasn't Ruben Reina been mentioned yet? He still holds the Balboa Park course record which has been run on pretty much every year by the best high schoolers in the nation and no one has come all that close to his mark.
Ritz would have broken it.

This. Although I agree that Webb, Ryun, and LV (and Lindgren) have better track credentials, Ritz was the greatest HS XC runner ever, and as that's a sport unto itself, I think he deserves close to a top 5 spot (top 7 at least).

11 years ago 06/22/2014 10:50pm EDT

re: google works well

google works well wrote:
Seyta wrote:
1) Yes it does. The validity with which people assert that some of the older runners are better than the newer ones applies because they ran in different eras. Fernandez is not eligible to receive that handicap.
2) Doesn't matter. 8:29 > 8:34 by a massive margin.
3) Verzbicas was being rained on, and the rabbit was a terrible pacer. He went out in 57 for the 400m, and came into the 800m at 2:01.
4) You've acknowledged the point.
5) He was a distance runner. He ran 5ks during cross country, and had every opportunity to run a 5k race. In fact, in the ONE course that both of them have run on (Footlocker Nationals), Verzbicas ran faster during both his first and second victories. Fernandez was dragged along the entire race by the eventual winner and second place, while Verzbicas led the whole way through without any actual competition.
6) Here's the thing. During Ryun's era, there WERE no national high school track titles. This is the purpose of point 1. Ryun gets a bye because he ran in an era in which some of what Verzbicas accomplished would be impossible.
Fernandez could run at both NBIN and NBON, and incidentally, he did fairly well at NBON, winning the 2-mile. However, total up his titles, and he has less than Verzbicas. The comparison is valid when it is relevant, and in this case, it is, because both of them ran at National-level High School Track meets.
---------------
The only people who actually think Fernandez was a superior high school runner have absolutely no idea as to what they're talking about.
They graduated 3 years apart, so their access to competition, opportunities, and training methodologies are virtually identical. One of them has faster times in cross country, faster times in track over every relevant distance, more national victories in cross country, and more national victories in track.
Your only valid argument is that Verzbicas had a rabbit and Fernandez did not. But of course, I could say plenty of nearly-irrelevant factors too. For instance, I could say that Verzbicas was rained on when he ran a sub-4 mile, and Fernandez was not when he ran his 4:00 1600m. I could also say that Verzbicas experienced injuries that removed him from a significant portion of his sophomore xc season, yet still won Footlocker, while Fernandez did not.
When you run an 8:29 2-mile with a rabbit, and your competition's best 2-mile is only 8:34, you're better regardless.
I agree with this guy - as far as careers go, LV was better than GF.
I think GF had opportunities to put his name in the deeper into record books but chose not to (perhaps if the years were reversed, and GF was chasing an 8:28 record, the story would be different). He could have went to Pre to break 4 or break 8:30 and probably would've accomplished either goal -- but he didn't.
So, as far as rankings go, LV goes above GF.
However, I think if there were a mythical 2M race where all of the HSers ran at Pre, I'd go with:
Webb
...and then LV/GF somewhere around 8:28 each

This. Webb could've beaten ANYONE at the top of their peaks in HS at the 2-mile. Maybe Ryun would've beaten him in the 1, but not the 2. Maybe Lindgren/Ritz would've beaten him in a 5K (they definitely would actually), but Webb would undoubtedly have won in a dream 2-mile.

11 years ago 06/22/2014 11:39pm EDT

re: GoldenMiles

One of, but not the greatest.

GoldenMiles wrote:Ritz was the greatest HS XC runner ever, and as that's a sport unto itself, I think he deserves close to a top 5 spot (top 7 at least).

11 years ago 06/23/2014 12:13am EDT

re: coach d.

coach d. wrote:
One of, but not the greatest.
GoldenMiles wrote:Ritz was the greatest HS XC runner ever, and as that's a sport unto itself, I think he deserves close to a top 5 spot (top 7 at least).

Out of curiosity, who's your pick? I remember a few years ago, LetsRun.com did a top ten prep XC runners, and they put Ritz as #1.

11 years ago 06/23/2014 12:14am EDT

re: GoldenMiles

11 years ago 06/23/2014 7:19pm EDT

re: GoldenMiles

11 years ago 06/23/2014 10:15pm EDT

re: GoldenMiles

Virgin took 13th at AAU Senior Cross-Country Nationals as a HS senior in an Olympic year against the likes of Shorter, Bachelor, and Galloway. I saw Ritz run two cross-country races in high school and he dominated. I saw Virgin run 13:50.8 at Detweiler in tall, wet grass. I favor Virgin over Ritz in cross-country mailing because Ritz would never have taken 13th at men's nationals in high school. Let's be real. Ritz would have annoyed Virgin in a mythical race for the first couple of miles at most.

11 years ago 06/24/2014 11:30pm EDT

re: troglodyte

troglodyte wrote:
Virgin took 13th at AAU Senior Cross-Country Nationals as a HS senior in an Olympic year against the likes of Shorter, Bachelor, and Galloway. I saw Ritz run two cross-country races in high school and he dominated. I saw Virgin run 13:50.8 at Detweiler in tall, wet grass. I favor Virgin over Ritz in cross-country mailing because Ritz would never have taken 13th at men's nationals in high school. Let's be real. Ritz would have annoyed Virgin in a mythical race for the first couple of miles at most.

Interesting about Virgin. He's the only US male to win World XC gold, no? Ritz did win a bronze at World Junior XC, I believe. Do good HS XC runners still compete at World Juniors?

11 years ago 06/25/2014 7:19am EDT

re: troglodyte

troglodyte wrote:
Virgin took 13th at AAU Senior Cross-Country Nationals as a HS senior in an Olympic year against the likes of Shorter, Bachelor, and Galloway. I saw Ritz run two cross-country races in high school and he dominated. I saw Virgin run 13:50.8 at Detweiler in tall, wet grass. I favor Virgin over Ritz in cross-country mailing because Ritz would never have taken 13th at men's nationals in high school. Let's be real. Ritz would have annoyed Virgin in a mythical race for the first couple of miles at most.

I will disagree. I believe Ritz could have taken 13th at Men's Nationals in 2000 and beaten Michael Cox. Don't forget, he was the bronze medalist in the Junior race in which Bekele was the champ.

11 years ago 06/27/2014 12:17am EDT

re: Linsanity

So what! Back when I was an assistant, I had an athlete finish second to Bob Kennedy in an NCAA cross country race....but he was still ~45 seconds behind.

11 years ago 06/27/2014 7:49am EDT

re: coach d.

coach d. wrote:
So what! Back when I was an assistant, I had an athlete finish second to Bob Kennedy in an NCAA cross country race....but he was still ~45 seconds behind.

God bless Bob Kennedy.

11 years ago 06/27/2014 8:00am EDT

re: coach d.

The 14:10 5K that Ritz ran at the MI state meet course is superior to Virgin's 13:50 at Detweiller. I've run both courses.

The is no way Ritz isn't top 7-8 on an all-time HS distance runners list.

4:05.9 1600m

8:41 3200m as a junior

13:44 at USATF senior nationals (finishing 10-12 I think?)

14:10 at his state meet (winning by over 50 seconds...second fastest time ever on the course is 14:52).

14:35 at Kenosha (broke his own record of 14:55 from that year before).

Winning times of 14:29 and 14:35 form his national cross country titles.

Did not lose a high school race from sophomore 2 Mile nationals until graduation.

3 time national 2 mile champion.

2 time FL national champion.

3rd at World Junior Cross at a time when Ethiopians and Kenyans dominated (as opposed to the US guys that won in the 70s).

Bottom line is the guy DELIVERED EVERY SINGLE TIME.

11 years ago 06/27/2014 1:55pm EDT

re: Ritzie

Ritzie wrote:
The 14:10 5K that Ritz ran at the MI state meet course is superior to Virgin's 13:50 at Detweiller. I've run both courses.
The is no way Ritz isn't top 7-8 on an all-time HS distance runners list.
4:05.9 1600m
8:41 3200m as a junior
13:44 at USATF senior nationals (finishing 10-12 I think?)
14:10 at his state meet (winning by over 50 seconds...second fastest time ever on the course is 14:52).
14:35 at Kenosha (broke his own record of 14:55 from that year before).
Winning times of 14:29 and 14:35 form his national cross country titles.
Did not lose a high school race from sophomore 2 Mile nationals until graduation.
3 time national 2 mile champion.
2 time FL national champion.
3rd at World Junior Cross at a time when Ethiopians and Kenyans dominated (as opposed to the US guys that won in the 70s).
Bottom line is the guy DELIVERED EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Ritz is BY FAR my favorite HS runner ever, as well as being objectively the greatest HS XC runner (again, read the arguments in the LR link I posted earlier).

I've always been upset he hasn't had Rupp's professional career. Did he get burned out early?

11 years ago 06/27/2014 6:31pm EDT

re: Ritzie

Ritzie wrote:
The 14:10 5K that Ritz ran at the MI state meet course is superior to Virgin's 13:50 at Detweiller. I've run both courses.

Of course it is. Who was questioning that?

Both courses are pancake flat. I don't know the EXACT measurement of the MI state course, but the Detweiller report showed that the course was 4768m (I believe that was the Golden Mean Shortest Route Possible measurement). So, in order for Ritz to have ran the same pace as Virgin at Detweiller, the MI State course would only need to be 4883m. There is no question of which record is better.

That said... that doesn't mean Ritz is the best prep XC runner in history (though I agree he's very far up there, certainly Top-10 and probably Top-5 depending on the criteria)

11 years ago 06/27/2014 6:33pm EDT

re: watchout

watchout wrote:
Ritzie wrote:
The 14:10 5K that Ritz ran at the MI state meet course is superior to Virgin's 13:50 at Detweiller. I've run both courses.
Of course it is. Who was questioning that?
Both courses are pancake flat. I don't know the EXACT measurement of the MI state course, but the Detweiller report showed that the course was 4768m (I believe that was the Golden Mean Shortest Route Possible measurement). So, in order for Ritz to have ran the same pace as Virgin at Detweiller, the MI State course would only need to be 4883m. There is no question of which record is better.
That said... that doesn't mean Ritz is the best prep XC runner in history (though I agree he's very far up there, certainly Top-10 and probably Top-5 depending on the criteria)

Sorry -- Detweiller report said 4789?, which would mean MI State has to be 4909m+ (which I definitely expect it is).

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