Where does Asbel Kiprop rank among all-time 1500m runners?

aduck2022 wrote:please explain to me then why athletes microdose

epo ?????...drivel...drivel

does you peabrain seriously think micro-dosing is going to take a guys's hct from 43.5 to 49.9 ???

your peabrain please explain what dosing regimen takes a guy's hct from ordinary to super-human ???

let me guess, they all have rubra vera before they start epo ???

Confused Oldguy wrote:

How can Steve Cram get left off of these lists?

1:42.88/3:29.67/3:46.32

Last athlete that we know to run sub 3:47 without drugs. Faster than Coe, but not as decorated at the Olympic level. I think you could argue the top two spots on the list (without the spectra of drugs) are Coe and Cram and it is hard to decide which one was better. Cram has Worlds gold in 83, Olympic silver in 84 and 4th in 88. Coe has silver 800/gold 1500 at boycotted Moscow Olympics and

silver 1500/gold 800 at 84 LA. Coe has no World titles. Cram beats Coe at every European Champs they compete in together.

Coe

1:41.73/3:29.77/3:47.33

Everyone else after 93 are dopers. This thread needs two lists, one before 93 and one after. On the list before it is Cram and Coe 1-2. You can debate you is one. I say Cram wins just barely.

You are correct, Cram should be in the debate and I'd put him in the top 10. I also agree that I believe he was from the last era of mid distance guys who were the most likely to be clean.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I'd have to put Coe above Cram on account of his 2 Olympic golds, which trumps Cram's 1 World & 2 Europeans.

Coe also broke the 1500 & Mile world records more (4 in total to Cram's 2) and had 2 seasons as the fastest over 1500, '79 & '86. Surprisingly Cram only ended 1 season as the fastest over 1500 and that was 1988!

In terms of best times, their 1500 pbs are practically the same, with Cram a faster Mile pb & Coe faster at 800 & 1000.

In terms of head to head races, the score is 7:3 in Coe's favour. In the 1500 & Mile it is 4:2 in Coe's favour.

Over the entirety of their careers I'd also say Coe was slightly more consistent, losing fewer races. Cram's career was practically finished by end of 88, when he was still a relatively young 28 year old.

cram is the clean mile record holder

only the doppers morcelli,el g and ngeny ahead

i have my doubts about Lord Sir bastion newbold

i think he had some blood dopping to get him through the double rounds at OGs

coe broke more world records but he was only just ahead of cram and the records were softer at the time

morcelli gained 3-4 seconds with epo in the early 90s

enabling him to smash the record down to 3-27

el g gained a bit more with his more potent ped cocktail

Mr. Obvious wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

idiot

then find a calculation to offer what shape a guy who made up 20y on 47.0/47.5 guys to win a 440y

Didn't you post up above his split was 46.9? Why would we need a calculation then?

Those 47.0 guys must have had really bad days.

Yes, and in some sources Ryun's leg is quoted as 47.0 not 46.9, including T&FN and AW, but hey, whose quibbling over 0.1! It just shows that there were more discrepancies back in the day.

As for the track being rain-sodden, I think that is a little over-exaggerated. No doubt it had rained the night before, but there is no reference to the track being rain soaked in T&FN at the time. Indeed, a little bit of rain can actually make cinders a bit quicker.

Here is a photo of the track as Ryun finished the Mile 3 hours before his relay leg: -

While obviously not in great condition, it certainly doesn't look water logged, and it had another 3 hours of drying before he ran his relay leg.

VENTOMANIAC wrote:

cram is the clean mile record holder

only the doppers morcelli,el g and ngeny ahead

i have my doubts about Lord Sir bastion newbold

i think he had some blood dopping to get him through the double rounds at OGs

That's a bit tenuous! You think that based on what?

Does that mean Ovett in 80, Cram in 86 and Snell in 64 also blood doped because they either did or came close to doing the middle distance double in a major championships?

You do know that it was on the back of a research paper drawn up by Coe in 85 that blood doping was outlawed by the IAAF? And he ran his fastest time for 1500 a year later in 86, when past his best.

VENTOMANIAC wrote:

coe broke more world records but he was only just ahead of cram and the records were softer at the time

morcelli gained 3-4 seconds with epo in the early 90s

enabling him to smash the record down to 3-27

el g gained a bit more with his more potent ped cocktail

I agree with your analysis of Morceli and EL G.

I personally think Coe's solo 3:31 off 52.4/1:49.1 opening and his unevenly paced 3:29.7 in 86 are slightly superior to Cram's 3:29.6 & 3:46.3 WR runs.

Coe really should have brought the 1500 record down to 3:28 before Cram's Nice run.

just a hunch on Lord Newbold

maybe he wasn't blood-doopey-dooping and steroid

i have no doubt cram was clean and is the legit mile wr holder

He set a fast pace because if he didn't, people would run by him easily. Because he wasn't the same kind of runner that Mo is.

[quoteMo could do the same but is satisfied with winning in a kick.[/quote]

Mo MAY be able to do the same. But he's never done it. Not once; so the onus here would be on you to support your argument with some kind of evidence. And posting times of a fast last lap doesn't qualify.

[quoteThey are both 3k types, i.e., that is their best distance. And they can run well at 1500m & 5000m as well.[/quote]

That's certainly Komen's best time, and race, but his 5000m was pretty awesome as well. Presently, the 1500m seems to be Mo's best.

Which says nothing about them being the same "type" of runner. It says that Mo has a slightly faster1500m time. Cram had a very similar 1500m/mile pb as Komen, but they were not the same type of runner either.

[quoteHere is a video of his mile PR race

You don't run a 3'46 mile without having some speed.[/quote]

I've seen it, many times. He runs, as usual, a consistent pace and doesn't show a strong kick. He was a great runner; just not the same type of runner as Mo is.

You have no idea what Komen's best 400m time might have been. But that's a moot point - most top middle distance runners probably have a 400m flat speed within 2-3 seconds of one another. That has NOTHING to do with with whether or not Mo and Komen are the same type of runner.

[quoteHe outkicked Geb here with a sub 59 second last lap in a 12'45 race...

[/quote]

This supports all those people who say you don't know what you're talking about. Komen doesn't "out kick" Geb there, Geb pulls up. He barely jogged the last 200m, not because Komen has more speed, but because Geb was layout tired, his feet hurt, and he didn't want to push it and have Komen break his WR. Watch the same race the next year and try to tell anyone Komen could out kick Geb. Not even close.

The crazy part (and frustrating) is that you already know this. So don't talk nonsense.

There's another video on youtube of Komen getting hosed in 5000m when he was a little younger .... Everyone runs away from him on the kick. In a 13:05 race. Watch it.

He really didn't have a high top end gear, and certainly no blazing finishing kick .... and that NEVER changed in his career, unlike Mo. it's not become something Mo is renowned for. What he did have was an amazing ability to churn out 59-61 second laps, smoothly and repeatedly, for an entire 30000-5000m race ..... Something Mo is NOT know for.

To claim they're the same type of runner is silly.

I can't remember the thread but a poster on here not so long ago, said they met Cram and asked him about Coe. Not only did he say that he believed Coe was clean, but he also said he was the most difficult to beat rival he came up against.

Coe doesn't really fit the profile of a steroid user. He was skinny, there was nothing of him for a start. Also, when he was ill it really affected his form. I doubt a blood doper would get ill so much. Coe had a history of chest colds and viruses. That was his weakness.

I have a similar tendency to get a lot of chest infections, although I don't pretend to be particularly athletic and I've certainly never blood doped!

Yes, I have a feeling Cram's 3:46.32 is the legit WR, although I believe he and a couple of others were capable of bettering it legitimately.

Peer Mediator wrote:Low altitude world record progression for the long jump is also listed on P.169 & 170 of the IAAF publication, "Progression of IAAF World Records, 2007 edition".

Lewis is listed 4 times, so he broke the non altitude WR 4 times; 8:62 in 81, 8.76 in 82, and 8.79 outdoors in 83 as well as matching it indoors in 84.

It also adds on P.169, that Beamon's altitude WR "would have been 8.56m in windless conditions at sea level" (Sports Illustrated)

I look forward to seeing if you're man enough to apologize.

& on page 605 of iaaf official handbook for '11 world championships on progression of lj wr, there is NO mention of Carl

and nearly all el guerroujs buddies got busted

the best one just happens to be clean..

And I have told you several times that Cram liked to run even splits and stated that was the best way for him to run his best times. Thus 51.0 was perfect for someone who was a 1:42 high/1:43 low athlete.

There is a reason why he never ran a 50 flat opening 400 and that is because it was too close (about 2 secs) to his 400 ability. Can't you understand this? Obviously not!

The interview said he ran it in the summer.

As for being 'fully rested' for a week beforehand, what athlete would ever take a full week out of training and racing to run any race or tt? A typically ridiculous suggestion.

If Coe could run a 45.6 400 split from a standing start 90 mins after a solo 1:44.0, does that mean he was capable of 44.0 for 400m fully rested as your fairy tale of 46.5 for Cram implies? Of course he couldn't.

Cram ran a 47.6 leg in September/October 84. Although he only ran 3:33 that summer, that does not mean that was his top ability. He was certainly still capable of 3:31 in the right race.

A 47.6 leg (perhaps with drafting) is worth 48.3 for 400m open, which fits in exactly with a 48.1 ability. It adds no credence to your nonsense.

ventolin^3 wrote:

moron

he ran a 47.6 relay in '84 when a 3'33 guy

what does your peabrain think he wouda gone in 3'29 shape ???

This is no evidence at all for being in faster 400m shape.

You really don't know much about training and middle distance.

ventolin^3 wrote:

i asked you for any 1'42 guy who has a serious 400sb of 48s at their 800 peak

find him...

Elliott had a 400 pb of 47.4 and ran 1:42.97

Nick Symmonds ran 47.5 the same season he ran 1:42.95

Cram ran 48.1 the same season he ran 1:42.88.

The caveat to Cram's run is that he had ideal pacing for his ability and was drafted to 700m of the race, something which Symmonds and I would suspect Elliott never had in their respective sub 1:43 performances.

Give Cram a 50.5 first lap and then left out in front for the 2nd lap, and I suspect he runs 1:43 low. Add to this the fact that he himself, in response to the question, 'Were you running close to your limits that night?' replied, "I think so."

Cram had much better 1000m and 1500 pbs and ability than either Elliott or Symmonds, and that is the reason why he could run as fast as them over 800, despite being c.0.5 slower over 1 lap.

This is not a difficult concept to understand.

It looks like he made up facts about Bolt's OOC testing as well.

My $.02 wrote:

Here's my top 10 list (only 1500 accomplishments)

1. El G - Olympic Champ/ Olympic Silver/ 4 * World Champion/ World Silver/ 2 * World Indoor Champion / World Record

2. Morceli - Olympic Champ/ 3 * World Champion/ World Indoor Champion/ World Record

3. Coe - 2 * Olympic Champ/ World Record

4. Kiprop - Olympic Champ/ 2 * World Champion

5. Ngeny - Olympic Champ/ World Silver

6. Lagat - Olympic Silver/ Olympic Bronze/ World Champion/ World Silver/ World Bronze/ World Indoor Silver

7. Keino - Olympic Champ/ Olympic Silver

8. Cacho - Olympic Champ/ Olympic Silver/ 2 * World Silver/ World Indoor Silver

9. Elliot - Olympic Champ/ 2 * World Record

10. Ryun - Olympic Silver/ World Record

10. Elliot - Olympic Champ/ 2 * World Record

This is the best one, but Lagat is ranked too high here. Switch the places of Elliot and Lagat.

Whats the best points table to compare results between different distances?

800m Coach wrote:

My $.02 wrote:

Here's my top 10 list (only 1500 accomplishments)

1. El G - Olympic Champ/ Olympic Silver/ 4 * World Champion/ World Silver/ 2 * World Indoor Champion / World Record

2. Morceli - Olympic Champ/ 3 * World Champion/ World Indoor Champion/ World Record

3. Coe - 2 * Olympic Champ/ World Record

4. Kiprop - Olympic Champ/ 2 * World Champion

5. Ngeny - Olympic Champ/ World Silver

6. Lagat - Olympic Silver/ Olympic Bronze/ World Champion/ World Silver/ World Bronze/ World Indoor Silver

7. Keino - Olympic Champ/ Olympic Silver

8. Cacho - Olympic Champ/ Olympic Silver/ 2 * World Silver/ World Indoor Silver

9. Elliot - Olympic Champ/ 2 * World Record

10. Ryun - Olympic Silver/ World Record

10. Elliot - Olympic Champ/ 2 * World Record

This is the best one, but Lagat is ranked too high here. Switch the places of Elliot and Lagat.

I agree that Herb Elliott should be higher, and Snell should also be on the list. Records at the mile should also count, being as it was run as often as 1500 back in the day and both these guys won Olympic titles and held the Mile WR.

Cacho is too high. He was somewhat lucky to win in 92 with Morceli messing up, and Ngeny was a 2 season wonder, before disappearing without trace.

It should also be remembered that Coe broke the Mile record 3 times, more than any other athlete in the modern (since World War 2) era. That, together with being the only man to win 2 Olympic titles would put him at least = No. 1 for me.

Don't trust EL G, Morceli, Ngeny or Lagat's performances, though you gotta include them without proof of any wrong doing.

1= Coe & EL G

3- Elliott

4- Morceli

5= Snell (Olympic Champ & Mile WR)& Ovett(twice World Cup champ, 2 x 1500 WR, 2 x mile wr)

7- Lagat

8- Cram (5 times ranked World #1)

9- Kiprop (too inconsistent on circuit to be higher)

10= Ryun & Ngeny