So someone is getting no drafting when 5'8 is covered because 6 inches is not!
So someone is getting no drafting when 5'8 is covered because 6 inches is not!
ukathleticscoach wrote:
So someone is getting no drafting when 5'8 is covered because 6 inches is not!
Lol. Yes, the mind boggles doesn't it!
Doubtless there will be some formula based on height and weight as to how much drafting is given.
Deanouk wrote:
Interesting how that old 'cut and paste' job that's been posted on here years ago from a fan, compares with the top 10 list compiled by 3 of the world's most well known statisticians in the book, "World's Greatest in Athletics" in 2015.
1. El G
2. Coe
3. Morceli
4. Elliott
5. Cram
6. Ovett
7. Snell
8. Keino
9. Walker
10. Ryun
Looks more accurate and from independent experts. Based on their judgement, looks like Ovett would beat Ryun in a hypothetical race on a synthetic track, especially in a championship setting. Ryun would more likely win on a cinder track.
That list looks quite reasonable, and as you can safely take El G and Morcelli out as near certain scientific experiments, the top 5 are Coe, (Herb) Elliot, Cram, and Ovett.
It still depends how you're ranking. If it's a hypothetical race with all the runners on their very best day at the peak of their careers, then I'd say it would be toss up between the top 5. I also think Ryun should be in that mix for certain if it's their peak potential rather than career achievements.
I saw in a Facebook group the other day somebody suggesting that Ovett was hampered by a cold or flu during the Moscow 1500m final. I have read that he had a flu the week after Moscow and that hampered him in the 5000m race against Treacey (incredible run if he wasn't 100%, losing only due to arrogance to an Olympic finalist (at 5000) from the week before in a fast time for those days). I see you (Deano) quickly shot that theory down.
I remember reading in a British athletics mag a hypothetical race between the all-time 800m greats - in around 82 or 83, so when Coe was still 2 seconds faster than anybody else in history. Coe was placed something like 5th or 6th. I remember thinking back then how little appreciated he was by his own country. Then the Seoul selection fiasco. I also remember BBC presenter Steve Ryder introducing coverage of a race featuring Aouita by claiming that he (Aouita) was certainly the greatest middle-distance runner in history. Also Brendan Foster stating during the Seoul non-selection controversy that if Coe felt aggrieved he should go out and break some world records like (I think) Zatopek did when he wasn't selected, but then Foster said that Coe couldn't do that because 'he wasn't in that league'.
It's no wonder that Peter Coe once, towards the end of his son's career, held up a banner for the BBC cameras at a meet with the words - 'Seb Coe - greatest middle-distance runner in history'.
Coe shoud have been in Seoul ( the chap that was selected in his place - as it were - went out in the first round)
And, of course, there was a tentative move to get Coe entered via a wild card as the defending champ ( now that's a good idea!).
Ovett never said he had a cold in the Olympic 1500 final. It was reported when he was beaten a week or so later at the Palace in a 5000m, that he was recovering from a cold.
Another Ovett fan used a bit of artistic license and put forward the theory that Ovett was probably coming down with a cold just as he hit the front straight in the 1500 final, based on the fact he didn't pass Straub. That same poster also agreed that Ovett wasn't getting past Coe on that day. So there was a bit of tongue in cheek with that particular poster.
Deanouk wrote:
Ovett never said he had a cold in the Olympic 1500 final. It was reported when he was beaten a week or so later at the Palace in a 5000m, that he was recovering from a cold.
Another Ovett fan used a bit of artistic license and put forward the theory that Ovett was probably coming down with a cold just as he hit the front straight in the 1500 final, based on the fact he didn't pass Straub. That same poster also agreed that Ovett wasn't getting past Coe on that day. So there was a bit of tongue in cheek with that particular poster.
Looking at the 1500m in 1980, it looked more like dehydration or a mild almost sun stroke type condition. But this was his own fault for racing the heat far too fast to keep his unbeaten steak alive. I think he even admits today that cost him a chance of gold.
I must admit I have always wondered whether Straub was a blood doper.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Deanouk wrote:Ovett never said he had a cold in the Olympic 1500 final. It was reported when he was beaten a week or so later at the Palace in a 5000m, that he was recovering from a cold.
Another Ovett fan used a bit of artistic license and put forward the theory that Ovett was probably coming down with a cold just as he hit the front straight in the 1500 final, based on the fact he didn't pass Straub. That same poster also agreed that Ovett wasn't getting past Coe on that day. So there was a bit of tongue in cheek with that particular poster.
Looking at the 1500m in 1980, it looked more like dehydration or a mild almost sun stroke type condition. But this was his own fault for racing the heat far too fast to keep his unbeaten steak alive. I think he even admits today that cost him a chance of gold.
I must admit I have always wondered whether Straub was a blood doper.
I think it's pretty much established that all the East Germans were doped to the gills, especially in events behind the Iron Curtain such as Moscow 80 and Prague 78.
All the East German records and medals should have been scrubbed long ago.
As far as Ovett never getting past Coe that day, I think that's clearly true. Ovett let Coe have a couple of meters start and was clearly confident enough to think he could handily outsprint him in the home straight.
As I always freely admit I'm far from an expert compared to some here like Deano, Subways, UKAthleticsCoach etc but it doesn't seem to me to be beyond the realms of imagination that Ovett at his 100% best was also capable of a 12.1 final 100m. I think he ran a 11.5 100m in 1978 an hour after running a 200m and/or a 400m. If he could do that from the blocks I don't see why he couldn't run 12 secs flat in a slow 1500m final if 100%. True he never did but then he rarely tried and preffered to wave to the crowd etc in non WR attempts.
Compare to Mo Farah who ran I think 13.5 100m from the blocks in that Superstars final and yet is obviously capable of faster when in full flow at the end even of a 5000m. Ovett in the 77 WC final I think could have ran the last 100m in 12 flat if hadn't chosen to wave to the crowd rather than convince online statiticians debating Coe vs Ovett 40 years later.
Coevett wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Looking at the 1500m in 1980, it looked more like dehydration or a mild almost sun stroke type condition. But this was his own fault for racing the heat far too fast to keep his unbeaten steak alive. I think he even admits today that cost him a chance of gold.
I must admit I have always wondered whether Straub was a blood doper.
I think it's pretty much established that all the East Germans were doped to the gills, especially in events behind the Iron Curtain such as Moscow 80 and Prague 78.
All the East German records and medals should have been scrubbed long ago.
As far as Ovett never getting past Coe that day, I think that's clearly true. Ovett let Coe have a couple of meters start and was clearly confident enough to think he could handily outsprint him in the home straight.
As I always freely admit I'm far from an expert compared to some here like Deano, Subways, UKAthleticsCoach etc but it doesn't seem to me to be beyond the realms of imagination that Ovett at his 100% best was also capable of a 12.1 final 100m. I think he ran a 11.5 100m in 1978 an hour after running a 200m and/or a 400m. If he could do that from the blocks I don't see why he couldn't run 12 secs flat in a slow 1500m final if 100%. True he never did but then he rarely tried and preffered to wave to the crowd etc in non WR attempts.
Compared to Mo Farah who ran I think 13.5 100m from the blocks in that Superstars final and yet is obviously capable of faster when in full flow at the end even of a 5000m. Ovett in the 77 WC final I think could have ran the last 100m in 12 flat if hadn't chosen to wave to the crowd rather than convince online statiticians debating Coe vs Ovett 40 years later.
Yeah, interesting. By doping yeah I know that the East Germans were doing alot. But was more meaning the "extra blood bags in the fridge type doping (as it wasn't illegal)" it honestly doesn't seem plausible that he could keep up. If you watch the 1980 1500m final again, Ovett runs the first 900m in lane 2 (and the last 100m). One would have to wonder as to his thought process that day, overconfidence perhaps? But look at his face down the back straight and the last bend, he doesn't look relaxed but admittedly no one would, Coe's last 50m was surreal. He had a better forward lean and drive.
I am 100% certain that if Ovett was on the scene say 10 years ago or even in the present (slower races though) I believe that the Ovett 1979-1981 could go sub 12:55 for the 5,000m. Without a doubt, he would certainly be the best white guy over that distance, that is why in my mind he is better than Ryun.
Specifico wrote:No need to be there and take temperature when 2 sets of official weather stations recorded the maximum temp in LA that day as 71F
is this a joke ???
we are talking stadium temperature NOT weather station temperature
it is hugely hotter for any stadium temperature as links showed
even more can't you read quote from a respected book ???
http://tinyurl.com/yabmdlek"the temperature was 95 degrees" !!!
i ask you for 100th time :
what was your reading of the temperature inside the stadium that day ???
Tennis courts are much smaller than athletic stadiums so using anecdotes from tennis matches has no baring on temp inside an athletic stadium
is this a joke ???
principle is the same or can't you understand basic logic ???
did you then ignore emma who said temperature in rio stadium was 95F but weather station temperatures were ~ 75F at the time
temperature according to emma was 20F higher in stadium than weather station !!!
did this not info not register with you ?
do you have comprehension problems ?
Of course some areas inside a track will be warmer than others, but the only stat that is relevant is the air temperature
is this a joke ?
the only relevant temperature is the stadium temperature
- Ryun said it was 95F
- respected book said it was 95F
i ask you for 100th time, what was your thermometer reading inside stadium that day ???
If the air temp was 22C in and around London stadium for 1500 final, and the air temp in LA on the day Ryun ran 3:33
what on earth are you talking about ???
which london 1500 final ???
'12 or '17 ???
what was stadium temperature in both ?
i want stadium temperature
offer it for all claims
then the conditions were the same
is this a joke ???
i have never seen anyone claim the '12 or '17 finals were run with stadium temperature of 95F !!!???
offer evidence ???
Just because you choose to believe what one person says they saw on a thermometer 50 years ago
is this a joke ???
the "person" is the man who set the 1500WR !!!
i ask you for 100th time :
what was your reading of stadium thermometer that day ???
does not change fact that the official air temp was 22C/71F
is this a joke ???
- Ryun said thermometer said 95F
- respected book said it was 95F
- emma siad her rio race had 95F when weather station temperature at time was ~ 75F
And IF a temp inside one stadium can give a higher reading than the air around it
is this an utter total joke ???
offer physics how a bowl which concentrates heat into the centre, akin to a "white body phenomenon" can make the weather station temperature lower ???
how do you propose this breaking of basic physics ???
then the same can be said for all stadiums
is this a joke ???
what stadiums are colder at trackside than outside ???
You stick a thermometer in a specific place in direct sunlight in the London stadium at a set time then it could also give a much higher reading
is this a joke ???
do you have any clue about meteorology ???
it is same conditions for every serious centre in the world or otherwise worthless
once more, what is this verbiage about london ???
what year ???
what was stadium thermometer reading in '12 & '17 ???
The only temp that is relevant is the official air temp taken in that surrounding area
is this a total joke ???
Ryun wasn't running at the weather station !!!!
he was running in the Coliseum !!!
the only relevant temperature was what the temperature was in the Coliseum !!!
Ryun said it was 95F
respected book said it was 95F
for 100th time : what was your temperature recording in the stadium that day ???
what did your thermometer read ???
Deanouk wrote:No, you can't use those markers for splits if this was indeed a 440yd track. The line you are using on the back straight was the line used to start the race, but on a 440yd track (which = 402.344m), then the 400m mark would be 2.3m before this line at end of first lap, 4.6m on 2nd and 7m behind on the 3rd. Therefore that start line would have been specially drawn on for a metric race, but can't be used for taking split times, as it would represent 402.344 at end of first lap, 804.69m at end of 2nd, and 1207.03m on last lap. So you are timing a stretch from 1207.03m to a mark 220yds from the finish line.
220yds = 201.68m, so 220yds (201.68m) from 1500m finish line is 1298.32m
So you are using a stretch from 1207.03m to 1298.32m, which equals 91.29m not 110yds. If he ran that stretch in 12 flat, then that equates to a 13.1 for 100m.
Unfortunately, any markings on a 440yd track for a metric race of 1500m, have to be viewed with a lot of additional calculations. They aren't particularly useful.
vague, waffling, imprecise, just wrong
learn elegance once you've even learnt accuracy
1500m start is 292.992m from finish
220y line is 201.168m from finish NOT 201.68m
that is 91.824m covered in ~ 12-flat
->
at worst
< 13.06
Coevett wrote:Are you a joke?[quote]
never
[quote]You've stated here many times that Ovett was capable of 1:43 flat or sub. You've stated that he was in that sort of shape in both 1978 and 1980
his 1'44.0+ in '78 with lotta wide running, off ridiculous split for him off 49-mid/high was worth ~ 1'42-high for route-1 off 50-low for 2s +ve splits in weather coe called
"cold, wet & wretched"
what woud you call 1'42-high in non-cold-wet-wretched ?
what a 1'42-high
it's likely ovett maya always been better at 800 than 1500, which is same postulation i have for Ryun, but they "force" themselves to "glory" event of 1500 when 800 was their better hitting-zone
even Ryun's likely 3'24-low ability doesn't compare with a likely 1'38-high at the time
his 6'2 with hugest thighs. ones i've never seen before or since on vid or live were meant to destroy shorter distances than 1500
look up iaaf table equivalences for
3'24.2
then seperately for
1'38.9
You've claimed that he would have ran at least low 1:43 (and broken the WR) in the 1978 European final if he hadn't chased Coe so much on his suicidal first lap. You've also claimed that Ovett was capable of 3:27 here just the other week.
These are all reasonable claims, btw
see above
ovett maya been better at 800 than 1500 & he maya been 3'27+ at his peak, which just shows how rubbish 800 is
poorly paced runs on circuit & poorly trained africans who do likely 0 weight-training
Ovett wasn't a clock chaser. He wanted to beat the competition he faced. Times don't mean as much as race victories, as times are set in different conditions, tracks, so many different variables which your psuedo-maths can never fully redress
yawn...
And that's why nobody could say who would win out of such similar talents as Ryun and Ovett
is this a joke ???
Ryun-'67 wouda crushed ovett in '77 dusseldorf in last 300 so bad it wouda made ovett quit the sport !!!
ukathleticscoach wrote:So someone is getting no drafting when 5'8 is covered because 6 inches is not!
laughable
do you have any clue about surface area considerations from squaring of height ratios implication ?
you do realise 0.7s/lap for perfect drafting is just ballpark ?
JRM's calculator gives upper limit as 1.5s/lap
i was shown this hugely impressive logic method decade+ ago on another board
it is same conversion for treadmill runs
running behind limpet-tight wabbit or on treadmill is advantaged by
~ wind-speed of your speed
it's just that only coe-firenze & Kip-zurich have had the limpet-tight drafting that warrants move from general 0.7s/lap to nearer 1.5s/lap
please, you really embarrass with that handle
don't post under it again unless you have some seriously impressive thought
it implies the associated flora/fauna are such woefully inept...
calculo wrote:
Coevett wrote:Are you a joke?[quote][quote]And that's why nobody could say who would win out of such similar talents as Ryun and Ovett
is this a joke ???
Ryun-'67 wouda crushed ovett in '77 dusseldorf in last 300 so bad it wouda made ovett quit the sport !!!
Utter nonsense, is this a joke?
'77 dusseldorf was a synthetic track, so Ryun would have either tripped up and lodged a protest or come 6th. If it were a freshly rolled cinders track, Ryun then and only then, may have won.
No, maximum official temperature was 72F.
https://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-history/90002/1967/07/08/
Ryun isn't a meteorologist. He's also recording something from 50 years ago, so he could have forgotten, exaggerated or been looking at a faulty temp gauge.
Official weather stats are more reliable than memory of someone looking back 50 years.
calculo wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:So someone is getting no drafting when 5'8 is covered because 6 inches is not!laughable
do you have any clue about surface area considerations from squaring of height ratios implication ?
you do realise 0.7s/lap for perfect drafting is just ballpark ?
JRM's calculator gives upper limit as 1.5s/lap
i was shown this hugely impressive logic method decade+ ago on another board
it is same conversion for treadmill runs
running behind limpet-tight wabbit or on treadmill is advantaged by
~ wind-speed of your speed
it's just that only coe-firenze & Kip-zurich have had the limpet-tight drafting that warrants move from general 0.7s/lap to nearer 1.5s/lap
please, you really embarrass with that handle
don't post under it again unless you have some seriously impressive thought
it implies the associated flora/fauna are such woefully inept...
So someone gets no drafting from someone 6 inches shorter. You are crazy,!
Let me know when one of your Kenyans breaks the world 1500m record in the basis of their fast last 100m.
Or Gebwet what happened to his world record off s short xc course run as a ,'junior'
You've never run or coached which is why you forgot where the 1500m start was that time.
Armchair quack
Six inches shorter puts a head and neck area in front of the chest and nothing at all in front of the head. So, he's right that it makes a difference.
Ovett never ran faster than 1:44 when he had major incentive to do so. Ryun ran 1:44.3 at 19 after a prelim and when he was sick and he was significantly faster the next year. Ryun gets the easy nod at 800m.
Ovett ran faster at 1500m but not close to what he might have run at that time if he had the mind to do it--3:28-29. However, Ryun smashed the existing record by 2.5 seconds in one race and he ran 2:46 to close on cinder or some such surface (a superior close to Manangoi and Cheruiyot where the one drafted the other all the way and the surface and temperature were much more preferable).
He closed a 3:38 on dirt in 36/50. Dropping seconds for surface, pacing, and drafting conservatively, his times would rate with anyone but Morceli/El G/Lagat/Ngeny, and Kiprop. Doing so less conservatively would place him easily in their territory. Any way you slice it, his miles and 1500m, Ryun gets the easy nod over Ovett.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:'77 dusseldorf was a synthetic track, so Ryun would have either tripped up and lodged a protest or come 6th. If it were a freshly rolled cinders track, Ryun then and only then, may have won.
stick to fertilzing pasture or ruminants as your remit...
Ryun of course wins. he never achieved his true potential as he was burned out from overtraining.
Specifico wrote:Ryun isn't a meteorologist
is this a joke ???
you think if you smash a considered "unbreakable" 1500WR of still claimed by some today, as greatest 1500 runner, by 2.5s !!!, you can't remeber temperature clock in stadium ???
i ask you for 101th time :
what was your temperature reading in stadium that day ???
He's also recording something from 50 years ago, so he could have forgotten, exaggerated or been looking at a faulty temp gauge
is this a joke ???
if you smashed a considered unbreakable 1500WR by 2.5s, you think he confused 95F with 55 or 135F ???
faulty temperature gauge ???
is this a joke ???
utter nonsense
guy ran in huge number of races in his career
you think he woud have mentioned 95F if it was a 72F stadium ???
what did you not understand for umpteenth time with emma saying rio stadium was 95F when weather was ~ 75F at time ???
what did you not comprehend of respected book saying it was 95F ???
http://tinyurl.com/yabmdlekwhat was your stadium temperature reading ???
Official weather stats are more reliable than memory of someone looking back 50 years
is this a joke ???
for 100+th time, do you not comprehend, the races are not run at a weather station but in a heat-concentrating bowl ???
once more : why can't you understand emma stating it was 95F in rio when 75F at weather station ???
do you have some neuronal incapacity ?!
offer better research or credentials than this
http://tinyurl.com/yabmdlekcalculo wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:'77 dusseldorf was a synthetic track, so Ryun would have either tripped up and lodged a protest or come 6th. If it were a freshly rolled cinders track, Ryun then and only then, may have won.stick to fertilzing pasture or ruminants as your remit...
??? WTF???
How's that Komen thread going?
Maybe you should go for a run. It is Letsrun.