Tergat on why non-Africans lose

Renato Canova wrote:

I've coach africans, and I've coached Americans. Africans simply work harder.

With all due respect Renato, that(harder work) is the ONLY difference?

And even if it were (which is not), you fully realize that some athletes can inherently train harder day in and day out (you've even commented on that yourself comparing different african runners) than others. The ability to work hard, absorb that training, and translate that training stress into improved fitness is a physical talent in itself (maybe the most important "talent" of all). Of course it can be manipulated via proper training loads and recovery, but when someone works "harder" than another, it is not simply a willingness to put in more time or effort. No often it is simply a mater of one athlete being better able to absorb that increased training, so he does it. There are plenty of runners who would be willing to run 300 miles a week with lots of intensity if they felt it could mean improved performance. But they know it won't, so they don't train to those extremes.

And do you truly believe that the only reason that Bekele is better than all the rest if because he "simply works harder" ? I know you don't believe that. You believe in talent. And it is in now way unreasonable to think that East Africans have a higher % of talented runners than other areas of the globe. Yes, they also work very hard, but that is not the only difference.

(ok, I may have been had. It appears that someone hijacked Renato's usename. I see a strange thread about this right now. )

Renato Canova wrote:

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

(ok, I may have been had. It appears that someone hijacked Renato's usename. I see a strange thread about this right now. )

It's true. If he sends me an email I'll send him the password.

if you are having so much fun with this, why not jump on his new thread and put in some crazy training info to get the letsrunners heads spinning? You're time is probably limited before you get bounced.

MAYBE africans train harder

MAYBE Not having the NCAA collegiate system helps them

BUT

I have had the opportunity to train with a lot of great runners, American record holders, olympians, do workouts with them as I'm sure a lot of people on this board have. They were almost all across the board training so hard that they were on the edge of injury the whole time. Flirting with that edge. How can they train harder than that?

Its how much they weigh period. Look at their legs. Look at the legs of a high school kid who you think "can compete with the Kenyans some day." See a difference. I remember the top ten 5k lists the year Bob Kennedy ran his pr and he was the heaviest one. He was pound for pound the best distance runner in the world but he wasnt the best distance runner in the world. The guy who weighed 119 pounds was. Less weight=faster running plus less injuries.

Running has a lot of factors but there are two principal ones. If one group of people is absolutely dominating than they must be dominating in one of these two realms because they trump everything.

1: How much oxygen you can deliver to the muscles

-Plenty of americans with 80+ Vo2 max

2: How much you weigh and where that weight is.

-Kenyans are light weight and more importantly light weight in the legs,

Everyone knows the difference running in racing flats makes. Imagine taking five pounds off of your legs. Now you're a kenyan.

There's all this bs and conjecture on this thread and then marathon mind posted the answer. They have lighter calves, studies have shown this. Everyone ignored him.

I think most on this board recognize the difference in calf size, muscle insertion points are different and contribute to calf the size differences. Most Africans have this trait also, not just Kenyans. There are distinct morphological differences between a typical African vs typical non African. The sitting height of Africans is typically shorter than non Africans (longer legs). If you have ever taken a spirometry test, look at the reults and there will be a correction factor there. This is due to racial differences in build. Africans tend to have smaller torsos, so the correction. Couple smaller torso with longer legs, you get an advantage. If you have ever looked at the results of the NBA and NFL draft camps you will see distict differences in maesurements down racial lines. Wing span = Arm legth Almost every case the shortest are white palyers and the longest are the black players. Also femur length in Africans is typically longer than non Africans relative to height. Its not just being lighter, or else you would have midgets winning the 10k oly final.

You're missing my point. All of those runners besides Meb were good when they came to the US. Yeah, Bile won some NCAA titles. Thats why George Mason brought him to the US. Morcelli ran a 3:40 before ever even entering college. The rest of your statement is just ignorant. I'm assuming by the best cyclist you meant Lance. He's a freak. Look at the rest of the best cyclists in the world. If you were to look today, you'd see the top American is 43rd in te world, with only 3 in the top 80. Yeah, America really has the best cyclists. Boxing I suppose you could make an arguement, but the US is far from dominant. There are alot of highly ranked Americans in the heavier weight classes, but as you go down there are very few. Mexico, some eastern European countries, and South American countries have just as many ranked fighters.Sprinters? Maybe for now. We have the 400m pretty dominated, but the 100 is going to the Jamaicans as is the 200. I bet within a few years the US loses its dominanace.

Hugo wrote:

___________________________________________________________

Abdi Bile

Nourdine Morceli

Julius Achon

Meb Keflezegi

G Shahanga

...Oh.....forget it, the list goes on and on of Africans that came through the American collegiate system and were world competetive on world level. Guess it didnt slow them down the same way it slowed the Americans. This is not why Americans are not as good.

Face it, there is really no good cultural reason for the African dominance. Getting a scholarship, studying and running is an excellent environment for success.

Funny how America is terrible for distance running because we all sit around playing video games, watching Tv, eating McDonalds. However, we dominate swimming, we have the best cyclist, boxers, sprinters, and most other sports. Just so happens our culture only effects running above 800 meters?

I believe if you placed Ethiopia as a country in the US there would be tons more great Ethiopian runners, especially female.

Weight is a huge factor, but it is certainly NOT ONLY their weight. That is an oversimplification. There are very small, skinny white runners with twig legs, and they have never risen to the level of the East Africans. It is clearly not the ONLY factor as you seem to suggest. Bekele has fairly muscular legs. However, he is small overall, and so has a great power to weight ratio. But again, it certainly is not as simple as you make it out to be. If it were as simple as you make it out to be, then women would beat men, because there are some teeny, tiny women runners out there, that weigh about 90lbs. Often times they are good, but weight was the ONLY factor, these elfs would beat everyone.

Leave letsrun now and stop running forever! You will never get better because running is an innate genetic gift that you don't have.

Actually, let me be one of the few voices of reason.

A. Hugo, you're right Africans are more talented and faster, and midgets have no hope of winning the Olympic 10k. Both of the these are as close to being facts as gravity and the earth being round.

B. Wellnow is also right. Yes two different people can actually both be correct. If people simply believed more they would be faster ( i.e. faster than they are now.. with emphasis). This is also a fact. Most people are no where near as fast as they are capable of being.

We as Americans may never dominate the medal stands in distance events. However, given the resources, knowledge, and opportunities we have, there is no reason the upper tail of the our running population has to be predominately 2:30 marathoners and 14 minute 5kers and not more sub 2:15's and 13:45's. Websites like Letsrun and dyestat (not runners world forums though) have already helped spread the knowledge of how to train smarter and debunk training myths such as interval training is the key to being fast or every run needs to be at a certain pace.

Also, Wellnow's words have been turned all around. Simply believing is not going to make you a world beater or even a regional warrior. And I doubt that's what he meant. That's just more of the same American, quick fix mindset that has crippled our running for the last 20 years. However, if people believe they can be great anddedicate themselves to that belief religiously through hard training and devotion than we can all be faster.

To me this all seems very obvious and I'm sure to most people reading this thread is. After reading some of the posts on here I think some people completely miss these obvious facts, poor hugo.

heyyo wrote:

Actually, let me be one of the few voices of reason.

How are you one of the few voices of reason, when you said nothing that most people on here would disagree with, or haven't already said or suggested?

Of course people like Hugo and me (and many others) who claim that a talent advantage is probably the main reason why the east africans dominate distance running would agree that believing in oneself helps one become better. Whoever said the two were mutually exclusive? We just think that those who deny the talent factor (and that IS what wellnow and some others are doing. No one is "turning" around their words) are being ignorant, because they can't accept reality or because they think that they are doing us a favor by telling us that "anyone can become Bekele, as long they believe it." That's not reality, and not dealing in reality is doing no one a favor.

Don't put words in wellnow's mouth in order to defend him. He said "talent is ALL in your head" and that one does not need any special physical characteristics or abilities to be a world beater. THOSE are his words. I am glad you want to sing kumbaya, and say "we are all right", but differences of opinion exist on why "non-africans lose", and that is why were are here: to discuss them. One always has a better chance of changing something if they start grounded in reality, not in never-never land.

This is all very simple - Africans, and East-Africans in particular, were born to run. Yes, they work hard. Yes, they are extremely dedicated. And yes, they are the most talented people on the earth when it comes to running.

Certain people have a predisposition to succeed in certain areas of life. This is why, no matter how hard they work, you will never see a Kenyan win Olympic gold, silver, or bronze in swimming. It's just not going to happen. You could set the most gifted Kenyan swimmer up with the best coaching, the finest facilities, etc. and it's just not going to happen. You are never going to see an Ethiopian with the build of Bekele win a gold medal in Greco Roman Wrestling. Why? because people with a build like Bekele were meant to hammer out 25 successive 63 second 400's - they weren't meant to wrestle.

I remember seeing Dan Browne a few years back before a race and thinking how perfectly built for running he was. I also remember watching him line up next to Geb before the Olympic 10k and thinking he looked like a tank. To Dan's credit he ran an awesome 10k, but we was also lapped by about 6 East-Africans.

Is this an excuse? Sure, but try explaining to Bob Kennedy that he place sixth in the Oly 5,000 simply because the other 5 guys worked harder and wanted it more. Yeah, right.

about the obvious factors such as genetics and lifestyle, may I also remind you that the presence of "champions" in a population is also based on the size of the "talent pool".

Why Brazil's soccer team (or Italy, etc) is the best? because there is a large number of players at the base and the selection to reach the very top is unbelievably selective.

In Kenya, there is a huge base of runners (because of lifestyle and aspiration to better life), so we can appreciate the sheer motivation and talent of the 0,0001% who made it at the top, while the others are back to be farmers or unemployed.

So the best US runner is maybe the best out of 10000 who gave it a shot. The Kenyan will be the best out of 100,000..

Lastly, running is a sport for "poor countries". The monetary/success motivation is simply not there for kids of developed countries.

Maybe 1 Mln kenyan kids can train to death because the perspective of winnning 30000USD in a marathon (with 1 out of million change) can be a lifetime change, but in a developed country is simply not enough...

all the money/prestige around running is simply too small to really draw the large talent pool that would be needed in the west to screen out the really very best.

Soccer, Tennis, Cycling, etc are simply a better option for a kid with aspiration and physical talent

The money prizes for a marathon are still ridiculous compared to other sports.

Just think of the 3rd best US marathon runner (Brian Sell): he had to work in a store while also training for Olympics and got sacked at the first downturn.

With his degree in dentistry, he would be much better off with a small clinic, filling cavities...

Excusez moi.....quelle bulls***

Please.

Merci

Au revoir

"everything will all become clear"

BRILILLYALLENTxxxxxxxxxx

My goodness, I'm just saying that as a country we excell in so many sports, even aerobic ones and as a non-African country we are pretty good in distance running. However, why not distance running relative to a few small impoverished coutries? You want to pick apart every sport to say that we don't dominate absolutely, I can throw out examples of how the US has success. This is the most prosperous country in the world, we should be able to set the best training environments. Im sure conditions in Ethiopia are actually counter to producing top runners. Look at life expectancy, childhood malnutrician, violence. I believe if Bob Kennedy were born in Ethiopia there would be less of a chance of him succeeding than being born in the U.S.

On the runners I named above, you sound like your supporting my point. Of course all those runners were good before they went to college, but they went to college in the US like the Americans and have prospered. You said the college system is the reason Americans are not as good. BS

There has to be a reason beyond the American college system, belief, diet, lifestyle, hard training that is the reason for East African dominance.

Every good runner trains hard, most up to the point of injury/illenss so the limiting factor is physical ability. Im sure if it was just a mtter of not attending college, believing or training hard, some American would have figured it out. Maybe Bob Kennedy- Oh wait, he did go through the college system.

I bet (Im guessing) there are more Americans that run track in high school than ever try it in Ethiopia and Kenya combined.

And we do dominate the sprints historically. Or more speciafically, West Africans ie Carribbean, US, Canada, UK etc.. Why do we have so much success sprinting, when these sprinters go through the college system, eat the same food/lifestyle etc.. Do they try harder, believe more, not go to college?

The US has so few East Africans and most of the blacks are of West African decent. Is it just coincidence we have had such success in sprinting? The only significant concentration of East africans the US has that I know of is around the DC area. A generation from now when you get success in distance running from that population, what will be the excuse?

Nailed. Best post of the day.

I'm the few voices of reason because I said so and because you all bicker on here like a bunch of chimpanzee's fighting over the last banana when there is another banana tree around the corner. Catch my drift?

Kenyan swimmer finishes 5th at Olympics. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd, but pretty close. It could happen.

By the way, there have been black medallist at the Olympics from other countries in swimming.

KENYADIGIT wrote:

http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/finishing-fifth-kenyan-swimmer-garners-acclaim/

Kenyan swimmer finishes 5th at Olympics. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd, but pretty close. It could happen.

By the way, there have been black medallist at the Olympics from other countries in swimming.

"Kenya’s Olympic star so far this year is Jason Dunford, a tall, blond, 21-year-old swimmer who goes to school at Stanford." By Kenyan I mean someone who has the physical attributes of a typical Kenyan.

You mean like Barack Obama has the physical attributes of an American? Did Zola Budd have the physical attributes of a South African?