Coe ran 46.87 as his lifetime PB at age 22 nine days after running around Lutkenhaus’ PB with a 1:42.3. He ran 3:32.1 that year.
Lutkenhaus hasn’t run a 400 since his recent jump. Before it was he was already a half-second better than Coe. He also was 16 not 22. So not only does he already have Coe speed it’s likely he has better than Coe speed. Why Coe is your comp at all I don’t get
Exactly. Plus Cooper's 46 400 was when he was still running 1:46 800s. He since took 4 seconds off that 800. It's not at all impossible that he has taken 2 seconds off his 400 as well. His coach thinks he has! Hopefully he'll race one outdoor
2 seconds faster puts him in the category of being one of the fastest 400 runners in the world. He would be capable of 20.5 over the 200. So with that kind of ability why isn't he running the 400? Some of you have no clue about the difference between a sprinter and a md man.
1. Hoey set the 600 record with Anaerobic strength, not Aerobic strength, which the 1500 is primarily dependent on. He also set the record because he obviously does WAY more specific work during the indoor season than everyone else.
2. Winning 1500 golds and running fast 1500 times require different skill-sets, which is why the all-time lists are dominated by 3k/5k guys. Olympic gold medalists over the past few decades have OVERWHELMINGLY been 800/1500, or at minimum 1500 specialists, because that's what you typically need to win gold at a championship.
How do you know that Hoey does way more specific work during the indoor season? How do the workouts differ? Did he not do specific work in preparation the USATF championships last year?
3/5K guys are not going to run the fastest 1500m times. None of top three at Paris, Hocker, Kerr and Nuguse, are 800/1500m runners. A fast 1500m runner is going to be good in either the 800m or 1500m.
The fastest times I've the 1500/mile have not been run by 800/1500 runners. El G, Lagat and Ngeny didn't fall into that group.
So no he didn't run it at the same age, nor stage of development. Since Cooper is a markedly better runner at 800 since he ran that 400 (4+ seconds in time, World Indoor Champion etc.), you are being naive if you think that is some "huge leap" to think that he can improve a lot at 400. He likely already has. This isn't to say he will break 45, let alone 44. It seems a pretty sure thing he will run much faster soon, though if he gets into a competitive race. Team USA is stacked at 800 and 1500 to the level that doubling itself is pretty unlikely unless Cooper becomes so good that he's getting regular byes in the 800.
At the level CL is already running a 2 second improvement over 400 is a huge jump. He can't be compared to most other 17 year olds. He has matured far earlier. He's not going to take 5 seconds off his 800 time, as many 17 year olds would.
If he is capable of 21-mid for the 200 - which is possible - he could possibly dip below 46 for the 400. That would still be Coe speed (he ran 45x in a relay). I think he is an 800 specialist whose skills are based on strength-endurance. The 800 and the 1500 have become very different events so it is unlikely he could successfully double at both. That is a rarity now.
He’s not going to drop 5 seconds off his 1:42.2 800 PR??? You don’t say!!!!
Yes, CL is capable of mid-21 right now, and that might mean 21.4 FAT. That does not translate to a sub-45 400, but, again, CL is very likely a faster 400 runner than 200 runner as his 22.12/46.3 PRs attest.
It is certainly conceivable that he can run 21-flat and 45-flat or a hair under in his career. His coach would say we are already there.
1:42.2 at 16 and world champ at 17? This kid is clearly an outlier. We are witnessing greatness. To proclaim anything about him or his potential is foolhardy.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
At the level CL is already running a 2 second improvement over 400 is a huge jump. He can't be compared to most other 17 year olds. He has matured far earlier. He's not going to take 5 seconds off his 800 time, as many 17 year olds would.
If he is capable of 21-mid for the 200 - which is possible - he could possibly dip below 46 for the 400. That would still be Coe speed (he ran 45x in a relay). I think he is an 800 specialist whose skills are based on strength-endurance. The 800 and the 1500 have become very different events so it is unlikely he could successfully double at both. That is a rarity now.
He’s not going to drop 5 seconds off his 1:42.2 800 PR??? You don’t say!!!!
Yes, CL is capable of mid-21 right now, and that might mean 21.4 FAT. That does not translate to a sub-45 400, but, again, CL is very likely a faster 400 runner than 200 runner as his 22.12/46.3 PRs attest.
It is certainly conceivable that he can run 21-flat and 45-flat or a hair under in his career. His coach would say we are already there.
1:42.2 at 16 and world champ at 17? This kid is clearly an outlier. We are witnessing greatness. To proclaim anything about him or his potential is foolhardy.
Another nugget from Armstronglivs is that a kid that ran 46:30 as a 16-year old, might run sub-46 someday.
At the level CL is already running a 2 second improvement over 400 is a huge jump. He can't be compared to most other 17 year olds. He has matured far earlier. He's not going to take 5 seconds off his 800 time, as many 17 year olds would.
If he is capable of 21-mid for the 200 - which is possible - he could possibly dip below 46 for the 400. That would still be Coe speed (he ran 45x in a relay). I think he is an 800 specialist whose skills are based on strength-endurance. The 800 and the 1500 have become very different events so it is unlikely he could successfully double at both. That is a rarity now.
He’s not going to drop 5 seconds off his 1:42.2 800 PR??? You don’t say!!!!
Yes, CL is capable of mid-21 right now, and that might mean 21.4 FAT. That does not translate to a sub-45 400, but, again, CL is very likely a faster 400 runner than 200 runner as his 22.12/46.3 PRs attest.
It is certainly conceivable that he can run 21-flat and 45-flat or a a hair under in his career. His coach would say we are already there.
1:42.2 at 16 and world champ at 17? This kid is clearly an outlier. We are witnessing greatness. To proclaim anything about him or his potential is foolhardy.
You don't realize that even .7 of a second faster over the 200 is a huge margin of speed. There is nothing that says he has that yet - if he ever does. His faster times over longer races - especially the 800 - say nothing about whether he has improved his basic speed, even if he has undoubtedly improved his endurance. Most of you here, being distance running aficionados, have no clue about how small the margins are in improving sprint times as distinct from the longer distances. Speed is one of the areas least susceptible to dramatic gains and that is why we see the obvious which is that runners from CL's age specialize in the events that reflect their abilities including their speed limitations. If he had sprint speed he would have been a sprinter. He doesn't. He has speed endurance so he's an 800 runner. Conversely, you will never see a 5k to marathon guy running 21.5 for the 200. No amount of training would enable them to do that. CL may be an amazing md talent but he is not and never will be a sprinter - which includes a 400 specialist.
This post was edited 50 seconds after it was posted.
He’s not going to drop 5 seconds off his 1:42.2 800 PR??? You don’t say!!!!
Yes, CL is capable of mid-21 right now, and that might mean 21.4 FAT. That does not translate to a sub-45 400, but, again, CL is very likely a faster 400 runner than 200 runner as his 22.12/46.3 PRs attest.
It is certainly conceivable that he can run 21-flat and 45-flat or a hair under in his career. His coach would say we are already there.
1:42.2 at 16 and world champ at 17? This kid is clearly an outlier. We are witnessing greatness. To proclaim anything about him or his potential is foolhardy.
Another nugget from Armstronglivs is that a kid that ran 46:30 as a 16-year old, might run sub-46 someday.
C’mon man, his 21.8 flying 200 as part of a hard session only translates to 22.65 FAT, which means he can only currently run about 48.3 for 400, two seconds slower than his PR. Don’t you know anything about sprinting???!!!
He’s not going to drop 5 seconds off his 1:42.2 800 PR??? You don’t say!!!!
Yes, CL is capable of mid-21 right now, and that might mean 21.4 FAT. That does not translate to a sub-45 400, but, again, CL is very likely a faster 400 runner than 200 runner as his 22.12/46.3 PRs attest.
It is certainly conceivable that he can run 21-flat and 45-flat or a a hair under in his career. His coach would say we are already there.
1:42.2 at 16 and world champ at 17? This kid is clearly an outlier. We are witnessing greatness. To proclaim anything about him or his potential is foolhardy.
You don't realize that even .7 of a second faster over the 200 is a huge margin of speed. There is nothing that says he has that yet - if he ever does. His faster times over longer races - especially the 800 - say nothing about whether he has improved his basic speed, even if he has undoubtedly improved his endurance. Most of you here, being distance running aficionados, have no clue about how small the margins are in improving sprint times as distinct from the longer distances. Speed is one of the areas least susceptible to dramatic gains and that is why we see the obvious which is that runners from CL's age specialize in the events that reflect their abilities including their speed limitations. If he had sprint speed he would have been a sprinter. He doesn't. He has speed endurance so he's an 800 runner. Conversely, you will never see a 5k to marathon guy running 21.5 for the 200. No amount of training would enable them to do that. CL may be an amazing md talent but he is not and never will be a sprinter - which includes a 400 specialist.
He’s not going to drop 5 seconds off his 1:42.2 800 PR??? You don’t say!!!!
Yes, CL is capable of mid-21 right now, and that might mean 21.4 FAT. That does not translate to a sub-45 400, but, again, CL is very likely a faster 400 runner than 200 runner as his 22.12/46.3 PRs attest.
It is certainly conceivable that he can run 21-flat and 45-flat or a hair under in his career. His coach would say we are already there.
1:42.2 at 16 and world champ at 17? This kid is clearly an outlier. We are witnessing greatness. To proclaim anything about him or his potential is foolhardy.
Another nugget from Armstronglivs is that a kid that ran 46:30 as a 16-year old, might run sub-46 someday.
Sub-46 doesn't mean he has actual sprint speed. It can be done with about 21.7 speed over the 200 - like Coe. But he will never have 44-low (2 secs faster than his best) for the 400 in him, which would require at least 20.5 speed.
He isn't just a "kid" like some other high schooler, he is already a physically mature athlete. If he wasn't he couldn't run what he has over the 800 and he certainly doesn't have the degree of improvement up his sleeve that "kids" tend to have. Even 3 seconds is out of the question - 1:39 isn't going to occur in our lifetimes.
This post was edited 35 seconds after it was posted.
You don't realize that even .7 of a second faster over the 200 is a huge margin of speed. There is nothing that says he has that yet - if he ever does. His faster times over longer races - especially the 800 - say nothing about whether he has improved his basic speed, even if he has undoubtedly improved his endurance. Most of you here, being distance running aficionados, have no clue about how small the margins are in improving sprint times as distinct from the longer distances. Speed is one of the areas least susceptible to dramatic gains and that is why we see the obvious which is that runners from CL's age specialize in the events that reflect their abilities including their speed limitations. If he had sprint speed he would have been a sprinter. He doesn't. He has speed endurance so he's an 800 runner. Conversely, you will never see a 5k to marathon guy running 21.5 for the 200. No amount of training would enable them to do that. CL may be an amazing md talent but he is not and never will be a sprinter - which includes a 400 specialist.
Nobody is calling him a sprinter.
They are if they are claiming he can run 44-mid or high over the 400, or at least 21-flat over the 200.
Another nugget from Armstronglivs is that a kid that ran 46:30 as a 16-year old, might run sub-46 someday.
C’mon man, his 21.8 flying 200 as part of a hard session only translates to 22.65 FAT, which means he can only currently run about 48.3 for 400, two seconds slower than his PR. Don’t you know anything about sprinting???!!!
You're a poor reader. His 21.8 flying 200 isn't claimed to be his limit. But it doesn't show that he is at least a second faster over the distance, as some are claiming. There is nothing that yet shows that.
I have said 21.7 or so FAT isn't out of the realm of possibility - as it was for Coe, who ran 45-mid for a 400 relay. But to run 45-flat FAT would require at least 21 sec speed or likely faster. His 800 times offer nothing about that and none of you can point to any occasion where he is running in the realm of 21/45. But you don't have a clue about sprinting.
They are if they are claiming he can run 44-mid or high over the 400, or at least 21-flat over the 200.
The vast, vast, vast majority of posters here are simply acknowledging that CL is an 800-meter runner who shouldn’t move up or down, but a guy who might just be capable of what his coach, who’s been with him during this entire meteoric rise, says he is, 44-high.
It doesn’t matter, if this kid accomplishes nothing else in running, he’s already run 1:42.2, has a world championship gold medal, has likely secured an 8-year, $2 million per year w college paid for deal w Nike, and has a coach who has proclaimed he’s capable of sub-45.
However, I hope he does go drop a 44.9 outdoors just to run you off the board.
They are if they are claiming he can run 44-mid or high over the 400, or at least 21-flat over the 200.
The vast, vast, vast majority of posters here are simply acknowledging that CL is an 800-meter runner who shouldn’t move up or down, but a guy who might just be capable of what his coach, who’s been with him during this entire meteoric rise, says he is, 44-high.
It doesn’t matter, if this kid accomplishes nothing else in running, he’s already run 1:42.2, has a world championship gold medal, has likely secured an 8-year, $2 million per year w college paid for deal w Nike, and has a coach who has proclaimed he’s capable of sub-45.
However, I hope he does go drop a 44.9 outdoors just to run you off the board.
I don't disagree with most of what you said. For the reasons I've said I don't think he can succeed at the 400 as well as the 800. I haven't discussed the 1500 but I also doubt that is in his wheelhouse.
I doubt we will see 44.9 for the 400 but if he does you'll be happy to say you were right and I was wrong. That should make you feel real good about yourself. I'll be pleased for you.
I might add, it seems some of you are unaware that coaches frequently talk up their athletes. I'm persuaded more by results.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Another nugget from Armstronglivs is that a kid that ran 46:30 as a 16-year old, might run sub-46 someday.
Sub-46 doesn't mean he has actual sprint speed. It can be done with about 21.7 speed over the 200 - like Coe. But he will never have 44-low (2 secs faster than his best) for the 400 in him, which would require at least 20.5 speed.
He isn't just a "kid" like some other high schooler, he is already a physically mature athlete. If he wasn't he couldn't run what he has over the 800 and he certainly doesn't have the degree of improvement up his sleeve that "kids" tend to have. Even 3 seconds is out of the question - 1:39 isn't going to occur in our lifetimes.
So you admit that Emmanuel Korir, who ran 44.2, had 20.5 speed and therefore 10.3 speed?
And remember he went 44.2 same year he ran 1:42.05…awful close time to CL…
The vast, vast, vast majority of posters here are simply acknowledging that CL is an 800-meter runner who shouldn’t move up or down, but a guy who might just be capable of what his coach, who’s been with him during this entire meteoric rise, says he is, 44-high.
It doesn’t matter, if this kid accomplishes nothing else in running, he’s already run 1:42.2, has a world championship gold medal, has likely secured an 8-year, $2 million per year w college paid for deal w Nike, and has a coach who has proclaimed he’s capable of sub-45.
However, I hope he does go drop a 44.9 outdoors just to run you off the board.
I don't disagree with most of what you said. For the reasons I've said I don't think he can succeed at the 400 as well as the 800. I haven't discussed the 1500 but I also doubt that is in his wheelhouse.
I doubt we will see 44.9 for the 400 but if he does you'll be happy to say you were right and I was wrong. That should make you feel real good about yourself. I'll be pleased for you.
I might add, it seems some of you are unaware that coaches frequently talk up their athletes. I'm persuaded more by results.
Nope, you’re the one who can’t read apparently. I’m not the one who thinks he’s capable of going sub-45 right now as I stated originally on the CL 200 thread.
His coach thinks he’s ready to go 44-high, so his coach will be the one who’s proven correct if he does it, not me. But it will make most posters here happy to see you humbled if his coach is correct. Nobody likes to hear themselves talk more than you, besides maybe Harambe.
FWIW, I DO think he’s capable of 21.0/44.9 eventually in his career. Good day, mate.
I know, I know…never ending talk about potential for superstars in adjacent distances. But it’s always fun to speculate and discus.
”I don’t think a 1:46 takes too much out of me right now” was his direct quote after the first round of the 800. His coach Chris Capeau (spelling) said he thinks he was in high 44 shape, during his talk with j Gault and rojo in the reaction show after the race.
1500 world record pace is 55 pace (after 41 opening 300) aka 1:50 800 pace. I know we’re thinking of him as more of a 4/8 guy but come on…get this 1:42 low kid who’s growing by the day, put him in a paced 1500 and who knows what will happen. I don’t even know if he has any 16/15 marks from high school.
Regardless, should be fun to watch him the rest of the year.
I think he might end up with 45 flat for the 400,and around 3.35 for the 1500 someday.
For many young runners in HS it can be fun to predict their future ceilings.
When a young HS runner is at an elite level early we are seeing "early maturity", similar to Alan Webb. I would not be surprised to see this young man retired by the time he is 25 and likely hitting his best performances by 21.
Don't get me wrong. Amazing athlete. Just when you have run 1:42 don't expect much in the way of future improvements.
C’mon man, his 21.8 flying 200 as part of a hard session only translates to 22.65 FAT, which means he can only currently run about 48.3 for 400, two seconds slower than his PR. Don’t you know anything about sprinting???!!!
You're a poor reader. His 21.8 flying 200 isn't claimed to be his limit. But it doesn't show that he is at least a second faster over the distance, as some are claiming. There is nothing that yet shows that.
I have said 21.7 or so FAT isn't out of the realm of possibility - as it was for Coe, who ran 45-mid for a 400 relay. But to run 45-flat FAT would require at least 21 sec speed or likely faster. His 800 times offer nothing about that and none of you can point to any occasion where he is running in the realm of 21/45. But you don't have a clue about sprinting.
Coe never ran 46.3 out of the blocks like Cooper. Nor did Coe ever run a relay leg as fast as Cooper’s 45.3. At the State Meet, 16 yr old Cooper doubled, and he ran a 46.3 after running a 1:47. There’s little doubt that had he not raced the 800 he would have run a little faster over the 400. Don’t be silly and try to deny this. Many of us agree with you that sub 1:40 will likely not occur in your lifetime, as you are very old.
I am almost certain he can run a sub-4 mile off of his 800 endurances, but he is by all appearances a 400/800 type and will probably never run a mile even closely comparable to his 800m PR. He will probably run a mile this year just to join the sub-4 club, but from that point on I don't expect to see him in too many more serious miles. He is a good 400m sprinter and I'm sure he's more excited about what he can do in the 400m. He has talked about his 400m potential, but he does seem excited about the mile.
Sprinters also make big leaps at even older ages, from high school to college.
The World Indoor 60m champ has dropped nearly a second in the 200m in the past four or five years. Jordan Anthony went from 20.85 to 19.93 and surely there is much more to come outdoors this year with his indoor improvement. Even his 60m times have dropped nearly 0.2s in the past few years.
Jeremiah Walker ran 46.81 in hs in 2022, third in tfrrs qualifying last year in college in 46.01.
Judson Lincoln ran 46.23 in hs in 2022, 44.60 in college in 2024.
Christopher Morales Williams ran 46.27 in 2022, 44.05 in college in 2024.