Did you read the article that Polevault power linked to ? They were accused of forcing the kids to snort B12 while make sure they not tell their parent about it. Then a higher up at the school told them to cut it out and they are accused of giving out B12 the next year anyway in liquid form.
Now admittedly those accusations are from 30 years ago but were kind of shocking. That being said, I still stand by what I wrote yesterday - i want nuts and bolts accusations and I want to see what has been alleged in the last 5 years
As more programs encourage young athletes to train like professionals, female runners report problems with restrictive eating, irregular menstrual cycles, and long-term bone damage.
no fm runners ever complained??? this is adults talking nicely about how it wasn't great. And these are the kids that were successful. There are a bunch that just walked away and never wanted to deal with publicly saying why they quit. Or, just quit after hs ended.
no fm runners ever complained??? this is adults talking nicely about how it wasn't great. And these are the kids that were successful. There are a bunch that just walked away and never wanted to deal with publicly saying why they quit. Or, just quit after hs ended.
HS kids like to complain on any team. And most quit after HS.
You know what I think is interesting? on these boards, even the brojos at times, revere these programs. We also love to make excuses for them, I think in large part because we are so mystified and inspired by their incredible results.
But if you listen to any professional talk about footlocker or NXN they fret and hand wring over "overtraining". Shalane Flanagan was my running camp counselor when I was in high school, and she had just won NCAA in XC. Even then she emphasized that she didn't do all three sports: XC, indoor and outdoor until she was a senior, and played soccer and swam for most of high school, a stat she was proud of. Most recently Kara and Des on their podcast were worried about kids running 100 mile weeks, and even girls crying after Brooks XC. Kara praised Blair Bartlett, who was a tennis player, and a couple runners she knew who didn't take it too seriously.
I think the whiplash of both these messages tends to sting. On the one hand you have high school programs training their kids like pros, and on the other you have actual pros telling kids to run less than 30 miles per week and play tennis. There's got to be an in between.
my thoughts are that running programs should prioritize kids' health and not have any "run to tolerance" rules in place. Kids shouldn't be going down with major injuries in a non contact sport. It's okay to work hard, it's okay to run all year round, but nothing should go over 50 miles a week at most, but if you are running under 30, you are probably not a very serious runner (also fine). Push kids to believe in themselves and their teammates, without taking away from their outside lives. They can go to football games, and eat candy. They're kids, not your moneymakers.
The thing about FM in particular is that in decades of incredible success at the high school level, they never produced a single collegiate All American, or at least none that I am aware of. Maybe parents smartened up to the fact that their kid probably wouldn't enjoy any long term success if they joined FM and would end up burned out. I'm glad parents aren't sending their kids to run on this needlessly intense program. I wouldn't recommend mine do it.
You seriously need to get a life and stop writing article length comments. I don’t see anywhere where Cullen complained. There was mention of Aris with Thanksgiving dinner guidance tow days before regionals. And he responded to that. You have no idea what you’re talking about. His training is no more intense than any other school. And we all know that most schools don’t have national championships every decade. Recruiting exists only in private schools. You get what you get as a coach in terms of kids who are talented and want to do the work.
This is such an unacceptable thing to think and you should be embarrassed for having uttered it. An incredibly risky action is okay because sheer dumb luck prevailed and no one was injured? Maybe apply that line of thought into some other life situations and see if it still makes sense to you. Try “drunk driving”, for instance.
I didn’t say it was smart or not risky. Im saying if he did this 40 years ago I have no problem with him coaching. Same thing if he had a drunk driving arrest 40 years ago .
Make sense?
My apologies for criticizing Safe Sport if USATF was the one banning him. I thought the whole point of Safe Sport was to have an independent body determine suspensions. Can someone explain to me why USATF acted here.
i thought safe sport handled all these things for them.
Your response significantly misrepresents how the SafeSport process works and, frankly, undermines the seriousness of athlete protection. Any matter that does not involve sexual misconduct is first referred to the appropriate National Governing Body (NGB) for review. If the NGB’s legal counsel determines that further investigation is warranted, the matter is then referred to an independent investigative firm. These investigations are not casual or informal — they are extensive, time-consuming, and often involve dozens or even hundreds of interviews, along with thousands of pages of documentation and evidence review. This process takes time because it is thorough, deliberate, and designed to protect all parties involved while ensuring due process. Once completed, a formal report with findings and recommendations is issued to the NGB for action. To suggest that this system is a “joke” or ineffective is not only inaccurate — it diminishes the very protections that exist to safeguard athletes. Anyone who truly understands the scope and seriousness of these investigations would never dismiss them so casually. We would all be in a far better place if more people treated athlete safety and well-being with the gravity it deserves. The federal framework and SafeSport exist for a reason. Anyone who has ever experienced or supported someone through abuse knows how critical these protections are — and how devastating it would be if they didn’t exist. I hope this clarifies the process and reinforces why accuracy and responsibility matter when discussing these issues. Do better!
Trust me. FM coach is NOT running the kids into the ground. The workouts are like any other successful team style and effort. No one from the past ever felt the need to complain. It’s the soft kids and their parents currently that need to step up to the demand or leave. Couldn’t even get a decent team to run well the past few years. Success is earned. And there’s no comparison with the allegations Art was up against.
Actually Mackenzie Carter, FM alum and member of the very first FM national championship in 2006, felt the need to complain.
Yes. And the FM coach is next. People are not going to sit by and watch these kids get run into the ground any more. Former athletes - the time to speak out is now, bc this stuff is still happening.
I read this book too. It was written with a pro Aris bias and I was still alarmed by all of it. They didn’t foster a healthy environment. They manipulated kids into killing themselves “for the team” and if they didn’t then they were a bad teammate/person. Kids missed out on so much, developed horrible eating habits as a result of the coaches manipulating kids into thinking eating a candy bar would betray their team. It was awful.
Not sure what you’re talking about. I know at least 10 former runners on the team that were top XC athletes . Both girls and boys. None of them had eating issues, or complained. Perhaps your little Johnny wasn’t as good and now the exaggeration starts.
I know/knew both the SS and FM coaches well.. we/I/ they did things in years past... stuff that would not pass muster today... so many things attributed to both are simply not true... many by disgruntled former charges of these two... every coach has them.. the % of those who loved their coaches compared to those who did not is likely very simply the same nationwide... just my two cents..worth exactly what you paid for it.
1) The Krannicks did some/many things they shouldn’t have done
2) the appropriate punishment is not a lifetime ban
what other punishment is possible via USATF? Also seems like the school district is the level this should be handled.
Just a couple comments here on the different topics.
1. The car tow incident was bad, but as far as I know, this was an incident from almost 40 years ago that is only being brought up now. That athlete seems to be the one pushing these investigations. She has been on local news a couple of times and she seems to be a bit off.
2. The B12 incident really was nuts. Before races the team had to kneel in a circle and art kranick would inject liquid b12 up the girls’ noses. The girls were complaining that it would drip out as they ran and they would all look like they had nose bleeds . Parents complained and the school gave the Kranicks a slap on the wrist. The parents of the Karls filed a complaint with the State Education Department but said the Kranicks were giving runners prescription drugs (which they weren’t). Kranicks sued and the Karls countersued and the Kranicks were awarded a judgment of about $30,000. 3. Myself, I’ve thought Art Kranick was having serious mental health issues the last couple years. He had a companion dog with him at all the meets I saw him. A couple years ago I was at a symposium at the Gideon Putnam, I hleft my charger out in my car and went out to the parking lot to get it. When I got to the parking lot, the Saratoga team was warming up nearby. The symposium was a snooze fest so for a few minutes I eavesdropped about what they were talking about. Art Kranick had index cards in his hands and started screaming to the effect “I have been telling everyone to write down the times of your runs to the hundredth of a second. I am still getting cards with the times written just to the second, what is wrong with you? How are you so stupid? Etc etc.”By the end he was screaming at the top of his lungs and all of these little girls were just cringing. One of the hurdlers on the team told me a story that a couple years ago they lost a dual meet in track and Art Kranick was fuming. As the bus was driving back to Saratoga he stood up to talk to the team and noticed kids in the back were eating . The coaches would bring celery and carrots to the meets and that was the only things kids were allowed to eat. He asked the kids what they were eating and they said “celery”. Kranick looked at the vegetable plate he brought and noticed no one had touched the carrots or celery. Then he noticed one girl trying to hide something in her bag. Well, it turned out her mom had given her a plate of cookies. Kranick threw the cookies out the window of the moving bus and when they got back to the school made the offenders run a few miles to burn off the calories they had tried to sneak in.
the article from runners world about FM literally has former runners complaining and saying they had eating issues.
Who is THEY? One person is mentioned on the article. She had a panic attack because he said to the team “if you can talk while you’re running, you’re too slow. Sorry but most coaches will say that. It’s a common statement. Then he told them not to go crazy with thanksgiving because the regionals were that Saturday. Oh, the horror! Let’s ban him for these statements. I know many coaches that educate their kids on proper nutrition. And yes they would call them on the crap the runners ate including lunch cafeteria the day of a meet. If you’re having a giant cookie don’t complain that the coach said something to you.
B12 nasal gel was sold at GNC in the 80s, I can remember buying it and self administering it before high school races my freshman year. This would not be out of the norms in the 80s (even if my coach suggested it, which they did not). B12 nasal gel has less risk than sodium bicarbonate for racing/training (bicarbonate buffering is common today). B12 looked bad coming out your nose in a race. Bicarbonate has more risk but is effective, therefore today's norms give it a pass.
It should be noted that almost all the items in the list of grievances (USATF statements presented earlier) are still considered norms, tolerable, and expected today in high school football. America still loves football. The USATF banning someone after death, that is a lack of organizational thought, perspective, and empathy.
May some sense of peace come to all involved (athletes, families, coaches).
1) The Krannicks did some/many things they shouldn’t have done
2) the appropriate punishment is not a lifetime ban
what other punishment is possible via USATF? Also seems like the school district is the level this should be handled.
Just a couple comments here on the different topics.
1. The car tow incident was bad, but as far as I know, this was an incident from almost 40 years ago that is only being brought up now. That athlete seems to be the one pushing these investigations. She has been on local news a couple of times and she seems to be a bit off.
2. The B12 incident really was nuts. Before races the team had to kneel in a circle and art kranick would inject liquid b12 up the girls’ noses. The girls were complaining that it would drip out as they ran and they would all look like they had nose bleeds . Parents complained and the school gave the Kranicks a slap on the wrist. The parents of the Karls filed a complaint with the State Education Department but said the Kranicks were giving runners prescription drugs (which they weren’t). Kranicks sued and the Karls countersued and the Kranicks were awarded a judgment of about $30,000. 3. Myself, I’ve thought Art Kranick was having serious mental health issues the last couple years. He had a companion dog with him at all the meets I saw him. A couple years ago I was at a symposium at the Gideon Putnam, I hleft my charger out in my car and went out to the parking lot to get it. When I got to the parking lot, the Saratoga team was warming up nearby. The symposium was a snooze fest so for a few minutes I eavesdropped about what they were talking about. Art Kranick had index cards in his hands and started screaming to the effect “I have been telling everyone to write down the times of your runs to the hundredth of a second. I am still getting cards with the times written just to the second, what is wrong with you? How are you so stupid? Etc etc.”By the end he was screaming at the top of his lungs and all of these little girls were just cringing. One of the hurdlers on the team told me a story that a couple years ago they lost a dual meet in track and Art Kranick was fuming. As the bus was driving back to Saratoga he stood up to talk to the team and noticed kids in the back were eating . The coaches would bring celery and carrots to the meets and that was the only things kids were allowed to eat. He asked the kids what they were eating and they said “celery”. Kranick looked at the vegetable plate he brought and noticed no one had touched the carrots or celery. Then he noticed one girl trying to hide something in her bag. Well, it turned out her mom had given her a plate of cookies. Kranick threw the cookies out the window of the moving bus and when they got back to the school made the offenders run a few miles to burn off the calories they had tried to sneak in.
Art Kranick sounds like a complete or at least partial nut job. Sorry to talk about someone like that who is deceased but really....
Just a couple comments here on the different topics.
1. The car tow incident was bad, but as far as I know, this was an incident from almost 40 years ago that is only being brought up now. That athlete seems to be the one pushing these investigations. She has been on local news a couple of times and she seems to be a bit off.
2. The B12 incident really was nuts. Before races the team had to kneel in a circle and art kranick would inject liquid b12 up the girls’ noses. The girls were complaining that it would drip out as they ran and they would all look like they had nose bleeds . Parents complained and the school gave the Kranicks a slap on the wrist. The parents of the Karls filed a complaint with the State Education Department but said the Kranicks were giving runners prescription drugs (which they weren’t). Kranicks sued and the Karls countersued and the Kranicks were awarded a judgment of about $30,000. 3. Myself, I’ve thought Art Kranick was having serious mental health issues the last couple years. He had a companion dog with him at all the meets I saw him. A couple years ago I was at a symposium at the Gideon Putnam, I hleft my charger out in my car and went out to the parking lot to get it. When I got to the parking lot, the Saratoga team was warming up nearby. The symposium was a snooze fest so for a few minutes I eavesdropped about what they were talking about. Art Kranick had index cards in his hands and started screaming to the effect “I have been telling everyone to write down the times of your runs to the hundredth of a second. I am still getting cards with the times written just to the second, what is wrong with you? How are you so stupid? Etc etc.”By the end he was screaming at the top of his lungs and all of these little girls were just cringing. One of the hurdlers on the team told me a story that a couple years ago they lost a dual meet in track and Art Kranick was fuming. As the bus was driving back to Saratoga he stood up to talk to the team and noticed kids in the back were eating . The coaches would bring celery and carrots to the meets and that was the only things kids were allowed to eat. He asked the kids what they were eating and they said “celery”. Kranick looked at the vegetable plate he brought and noticed no one had touched the carrots or celery. Then he noticed one girl trying to hide something in her bag. Well, it turned out her mom had given her a plate of cookies. Kranick threw the cookies out the window of the moving bus and when they got back to the school made the offenders run a few miles to burn off the calories they had tried to sneak in.
Art Kranick sounds like a complete or at least partial nut job. Sorry to talk about someone like that who is deceased but really....
Absolutely. And although there were many tough coaches out there, none of them get even close to the Kranick claims. I’ve had coaches yell, physically push me across the finish line in practice as a reminder to run through the line, long runs in blizzards with 5 inches of snow on the ground, etc. Art takes the cake. At least we didn’t have to kneel to get our bicarbonate pills handed to us or get tied to a truck
the article from runners world about FM literally has former runners complaining and saying they had eating issues.
Who is THEY? One person is mentioned on the article. She had a panic attack because he said to the team “if you can talk while you’re running, you’re too slow. Sorry but most coaches will say that. It’s a common statement. Then he told them not to go crazy with thanksgiving because the regionals were that Saturday. Oh, the horror! Let’s ban him for these statements. I know many coaches that educate their kids on proper nutrition. And yes they would call them on the crap the runners ate including lunch cafeteria the day of a meet. If you’re having a giant cookie don’t complain that the coach said something to you.
More than "One" FM runner is mentioned in the article. The person you described with the panic attack is Mackenzie Carter. This is at about 40% into the article.
Later in the article (at about 80%), Christie Rutledge is described. She had very serious injuries related to Bone Mineral Density and amenorrhea. Much of it she had concealed, but her parents noticed and Bill Aris did not allow her on the FM XC team her senior year. She blamed herself, so technically I suppose she is not complaining. But it is an example of how high school age kids can get on a trajectory and then decide to take it to a more extreme level. How much is the coach to blame? It's somewhat hard to say, I think. The coach is trying to have runners training hard and be fast (light weight), but not go as far as very high injury risk.
Margie Cullen and Anne Marshall-Chalmers, 2022 wrote:
In 2010, Rutledge took second at Nike Cross Nationals, leading her team to a win with the lowest score in NXN history. In her interview, you can hear the joy in her voice as the wind whips through her straight brown hair, the braid leading into her ponytail still perfectly intact even after the grueling race. She describes that day as “euphoric.”
But Rutledge kept something to herself. Unintentional weight loss had reignited an eating disorder she’d first battled in middle school. After NXN, Rutledge’s parents realized something was wrong. They found mental health treatment for her, watched her eating closely, and weighed her every day.
A couple of months after her victory, Rutledge was on the last rep of a workout, 90 minutes with 90-second sprints, when she felt a sharp pain deep in her right hip. She limped back to her high school. Doctors couldn’t immediately diagnose the pain, and she had to sit out much of her senior year. Her parents didn’t know it, but she had started purging food to keep weight off, and by the time she started college at Dartmouth, she hadn’t had her period in three years.
“I think my coaches did a very good job for what they could do,” she says, citing Aris’s decision not to have her race cross country her senior year. But Rutledge is adamant that it’s important to build trust and pay close attention to young girls. “They don’t always say when they’re hurting.”
Cullen and Marshall-Chalmers, at very end of article wrote:
Rutledge, now 28, competed in only three meets at Dartmouth before having to seek treatment for her eating disorder. “I don’t regret my experience. I wish things had turned out differently,” she says. “In high school, everything seems like it’s the most important thing to be at the very top and to do everything you can to get there, but I do look back and think I would give anything to just be able to go out for a few-mile jog right now.”
Rutledge doesn’t run anymore. She wants to, but at least for now, she can’t. That hip pain turned out to be ischial tuberosity avulsion fractures, a relatively rare injury usually caused by strenuous exercise in teenagers. Years out, she’s not fully healed. Carter doesn’t run either. “It gives me anxiety to this day to go out for a run,” she says. About half of the women we spoke to struggle to run. They lost the joy of the sport.
My comments on the article are for the berkeley version, which is not paywalled.
