Jakob has the greatest 5000m kick in history

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8 months ago 10/03/2025 1:27pm EDT

re: He is a Fake Kiwi

He is a Fake Kiwi wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
I come to threads on a running site - as you guys do - to discuss and debate issues about the sport - as you do. But unlike most of you I don't join in the chorus of adulation for any runner. I also post on a variety of threads that have nothing to do with Jakob or running. But your obsession with threads about him apparently blinds you to that.
All you do is bit*h about Jakob and moan about Trump. lol

You left out a primary reason for coming here, which is to discuss a doped sport. Discussing Jakob is just introducing a note of realism to the usual fantasizing about him. I don't "moan about Trump" - I recognise, even if you don't, that he is going to end the 250 year American Experiment.

This post was edited 37 seconds after it was posted.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 1:29pm EDT

re: high school xc coach

high school xc coach wrote:
Curious_Cat wrote:
I think he can run 52 as well in his 2024 form, but Hocker seems to have a sub-52 in him if you account for the fact that he ran it in lane 2, and he relaxed a little bit in the last 10 meters when he knew he'd got it.
That said, I think Jakob could still possibly have won even with a worse kick through positioning. Many people seem to forget that Jakob is actually a good tactician. His positioning in Budapest 5k was a textbook. In comparison, Hocker is tactically challenged, always out of place.
ya just looking at this particular race, Jakob would likely have in the ballpark of a full second advantage at the bell.

Good point. He could never have won from being 12th at the bell.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 1:50pm EDT

re: OACLOVERS

OACLOVERS wrote:
What is a kick really wrote:
Not in a sub 13 race he doesn’t.
The difference between 13:11 and 12:58 isn’t great. Jakob closes with a faster 400, 1000, 2000, and 3000. No way to refute that.

That's like saying a 3:59 mile is the same as a 4:03 mile. You should be able close faster on a slower early pace. The difference in pace for Hocker's 12:58 race and Jakob's 13:09-13:16 championship races is quite a bit, so Jakob should be able to close quite a bit faster. But Hocker's last lap was faster than any of Jakob's, and even from 1200 meters out they're not significantly different. Hocker's close was better given the significantly faster early pace.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 2:22pm EDT

re: Hot Takes

Hot Takes wrote:
OACLOVERS wrote:
The difference between 13:11 and 12:58 isn’t great. Jakob closes with a faster 400, 1000, 2000, and 3000. No way to refute that.
That's like saying a 3:59 mile is the same as a 4:03 mile. You should be able close faster on a slower early pace. The difference in pace for Hocker's 12:58 race and Jakob's 13:09-13:16 championship races is quite a bit, so Jakob should be able to close quite a bit faster. But Hocker's last lap was faster than any of Jakob's, and even from 1200 meters out they're not significantly different. Hocker's close was better given the significantly faster early pace.

I already laid out their splits. In Budapest, Jakob closed in 7:35, 4:56, 2:21, 52. That is a much greater change in pace than the marginal difference between the finishing times of 12:58 and 13:11. What really counts is the consistent pressure given in the last half of the race. “12:58” sounds impressive, but context matters. The difference between 12:58 and 13:11 is ~12.8 seconds spread across 12½ laps, almost a second per lap. Meanwhile, Jakob’s Budapest/Paris closes were faster at every checkpoint (last 3k, 2k, 1k) than Hocker’s Tokyo close by a significantly greater margin. For that reason, Jakob's close was better. Anyone who runs at an elite level knows this.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 2:41pm EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
OACLOVERS wrote:
Your arguments are weak and make no sense. My claim is that Jakob has the greatest kick in 5000m history. He showed that in 2023 and 2024 when he was at his best. The splits I showed in my original post were compared to every other 5000m global championship since 1972. When comparing, he has the fastest last 400, 1000, 2000, and 3000 out of any other runner. You then made irrelevant comparisons to Farah and El Guerrouj. Not a single one of Farah’s finals were finished as fast as Jakob’s. So yes, Farah is more accomplished but he has never demonstrated a kick as fast as Jakob’s. Same for El Guerrouj. His final 400 in Athens was slower than Jakob’s in Budapest and the last 1000, 2000, and 3000 were also slower.
Being the greatest kicker in the event isn't decided by the stopwatch but by who was beaten and how it was done with a finishing kick. El G's kick in Athens beating prime Bekele was greater than anything Ingebrigtsen has ever done. Farah repeatedly outkicking the best in the sport in successive global finals also puts him ahead of Ingebrigtsen - as does Bekele at his best.

No it isn't, it's defined by how fast you closed and comparing it to other fast closes in history. El G beating Bekele in a race where the final 1k wasn't even faster than 2:24 simply doesn't compare to Ingebrigtsen closing in 2:21. Ingebrigtsen's kick would in 23/24 would beat anyone in history other than 2008 Bekele. The splits show that.

Farah indeed won more 5000m titles than Ingebrigtsen, but in not a single one did he close as fast Ingebrigtsen. Put them in the same race and he loses every single time.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 2:44pm EDT

re: ukathleticscoach

ukathleticscoach wrote:
400m is not a kick that's a fast last lap
Yifter had best kick - did for peak Ovett

Agreed, that's why we also look at the last 1000, 2000, and 3000m. Jakob still excels over anyone in that category as well.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 2:45pm EDT

re: Curious_Cat

Curious_Cat wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
What we know for sure is that he hasn't run enough 5Ks for us to know if he can run a 52 last 400 in a race close to 12:58. I strongly believe he can, and that he is that kind of racer or runner. A 53.6 in a 13:02 in 2019 when he wasn't half the 5k runner he was in 23 or 24 is some bit of evidence. Though far from complete.
I think he can run 52 as well in his 2024 form, but Hocker seems to have a sub-52 in him if you account for the fact that he ran it in lane 2, and he relaxed a little bit in the last 10 meters when he knew he'd got it.
That said, I think Jakob could still possibly have won even with a worse kick through positioning. Many people seem to forget that Jakob is actually a good tactician. His positioning in Budapest 5k was a textbook. In comparison, Hocker is tactically challenged, always out of place.

Jakob ran in lane 2 multiple times in Budapest and Paris over the final half of the race. What you are describing is a non issue.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 2:46pm EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Maurice the Elevator Op wrote:
Armstronglivs knows Jakob came in with less than top condition due to injury. Just because he lined up doesn’t mean he was at his best. Someone like Kerr for example, wouldn’t have run at all if he’d missed that much build-up.
Armstronglivs is a bitter old flit, torn between his physical attraction to Jakob and the fact that Jakob likes women and is happily married. It’s that simple. Those truths stated, most people consider a ‘kick’ the acceleration at the very end of the 5k, the last lap. Jakob has never run a 52 last 400 in any race close to 12:58. He is not that kind of racer or runner.
Jakob hasn't run enough 5k races to qualify as the greatest kicker in the event.

Olympic Champion, Two time world champion, 3x European Champion. Do you even know what you are talking about? He has been running the event since a teenager.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 2:49pm EDT

re: Curious_Cat

Curious_Cat wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
What we know for sure is that he hasn't run enough 5Ks for us to know if he can run a 52 last 400 in a race close to 12:58. I strongly believe he can, and that he is that kind of racer or runner. A 53.6 in a 13:02 in 2019 when he wasn't half the 5k runner he was in 23 or 24 is some bit of evidence. Though far from complete.
I think he can run 52 as well in his 2024 form, but Hocker seems to have a sub-52 in him if you account for the fact that he ran it in lane 2, and he relaxed a little bit in the last 10 meters when he knew he'd got it.
That said, I think Jakob could still possibly have won even with a worse kick through positioning. Many people seem to forget that Jakob is actually a good tactician. His positioning in Budapest 5k was a textbook. In comparison, Hocker is tactically challenged, always out of place.

I agree. Jakob might have made a reputation for himself in his senior career for winning races through sheer fitness and ability, but if you go back and watch his junior races - or even pre 2021 where he wasn't in the position of favorite, he consistently shows really savvy racing. I don't think there's been a single runner who knows how to stay within himself and measure effort better (ignoring the Paris 1500m).

8 months ago 10/03/2025 3:18pm EDT

re: OACLover

OACLover wrote:
Posted in another thread:
Of the last 34 global 5000m championships (Starting at the Olympic Games 1972), the only winners to have run a sub 54 second last lap are (will include sub 13 races too even if the last lap wasn't sub 54):
1987- Said Aouita 52.92 Winning Time: 13:26.44
1999 - Salah Hissou 56.19 Winning time: 12:58.13
2003 - Eliud Kipchoge 53.4 Winning time: 12:52.79
2004 - El Guerrouj 52.6 Winning times 13:14.40
2005 - Benjamin Limo 53.6 Winning times: 13:32.55
2007 - Bernard Lagat 52.1-52.0 Winning times: 13:45.87
2008 - kenenisa Bekele 53.87 winning times: 12:57.82
2009 - Keneneisa Bekele 53.71 winning times: 13:17.09
2011 - Mo Farah 52.51 winning time: 13:23.36
2012 - Mo Farah 52.94 winning time: 13:41.66
2013 - Mo Farah 53.44 winning time: 13:26.98
2015 - Mofarah 52.67 winning time: 13:50
2016 - Mo Farh 52.9 winning time: 13:03.3
2017 - Muktar Edris - 52.5 winning time: 13:32.79
2019 - Muktar Edris - 55 winning time: 12:58.85
2021 - Josh Cheptegei - 55.05 winning time: 12:58.15
2022 - Jakob - 53.93 - winning time 13:09.24
2023 - Jakob - 52.45 winning time: 13:11.3
2024 - Jakob - 53.2 winning time: 13:13.66
2025 - Hocker - 52.62 winning time: 12:58.30
That is already 20 out of 34 races either in sub 54 or sub 13. Now of these 20, the only ones to close in a sub 2:23 final K are (will still include sub 13 races):
1999 (won't include it too far back and final K was like 2:28 or something)
2003: Eliud Kipchoge - 2:24.33 winning times: 12:52.79
2008: Kenenisa Bekele - 2:25.30 winning time: 12:57.82
2013 - Mo Farah - 2:22.28 winning time 13:26.98
2015 - Mo Farah - 2:19.22 winning time 13:50
2017 - Muktar Edris - 2:21.04 winning time: 13:32.79
2019- Muktar Edris - 2:24.3 winning time: 12:58.85
2021 -Josh Cheptegei - 2:25.35 winning time: 12:58.15
2023- Jakob - 2:21.07 winning time: 13:11.30
2024 - Jakob - 2:21.1 winning time: 13:13.66
2025 - Hocker - 2:25.31 winning time: 12:58.30
Now if we narrow it down to sub 5 final 2000m (still including sub 13 races):
2003: Eliud Kipchoge - 5:07 winning time 12:52.79
2008: Kenenisa Bekele - 4:56.97 winning time 12:57.82
2013 Mo Farah - 4:59.19 winning time 13:26.98
2017 Muktar Edris - 4:59.27 winning time: 13:32.79
2019 Muktar Edris - 5:05 winning time: 12:58.85
2021 Josh Cheptegei 5:03 winning time: 12:58.15
2023 Jakob 4:56.69 Winning time 13:11.30
2024 Jakob 4:55.4 Winning time 13:13.66
2025 Hocker: 5:05.48 Winning time 12:58.30
Lastly, let's rank all of them by the fastest last 3k:
2013 Mo Farah: 7:48.87
2003 Eliud Kipchoge: 7:45.93
2017 Muktar Edris: 7:44.51
2019 Muktar Edris: 7:43.51
2021 Josh Cheptegei 7:43.15
2025 Hocker: 7:41.75
2008 Kenenisa Bekele - 7:35.53
2024 Jakob: 7:35.4
2023 Jakob: 7:34.45
So now, take a look at all of Jakobs splits, he has the fastest final 400m out of any runner in championship history other than Lagat (But his finishing time was 13:45 and we can all agree that is obscenely slow). He also has the fastest last kilometer out of any runner other than Farah (13:50) and Edris (13:32.79). He also has the fastest last 2k out of any other runner in history x2. And lastly, he has the fastest final 3k in history x2.
Jakob may possibly have the greatest 5000m kick of all time. To be able to run a 52 after a 2:21 Km, a 4:55 2k, and a 7:35 final 3k demonstrates GOAT kicking ability. Nobody else has done that before. It's equivalent to El Guerrouj running 1:46 for the final 800 in Athens. The ONLY runner in history who could have beat him in Budapest and Paris was Bekele as he arguably has the most impressive one off performance in championship 5000m history (2008). BUT, I think in a traditional final 2k burnup, Jakob will win every time.

When you lay it out like that, wow, Jakob really does have the best finishing speed and strength combined. Most people here already assumed he was the best 5000m Championship runner ever but this confirms it. Once he gets that WR + Olympic Gold in LA he'll be the GOAT. That plus a World Title in Beijing and there is no argument for anyone else.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 3:29pm EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
What we know for sure is that he hasn't run enough 5Ks for us to know if he can run a 52 last 400 in a race close to 12:58. I strongly believe he can, and that he is that kind of racer or runner. A 53.6 in a 13:02 in 2019 when he wasn't half the 5k runner he was in 23 or 24 is some bit of evidence. Though far from complete.
We will never know because he will likely never do it now. I would bet the house, the car and the dog his best years are behind him.

Not the wife?

8 months ago 10/03/2025 4:58pm EDT

re: snowflakes

snowflakes wrote:
OACLover wrote:
Posted in another thread:
Of the last 34 global 5000m championships (Starting at the Olympic Games 1972), the only winners to have run a sub 54 second last lap are (will include sub 13 races too even if the last lap wasn't sub 54):
1987- Said Aouita 52.92 Winning Time: 13:26.44
1999 - Salah Hissou 56.19 Winning time: 12:58.13
2003 - Eliud Kipchoge 53.4 Winning time: 12:52.79
2004 - El Guerrouj 52.6 Winning times 13:14.40
2005 - Benjamin Limo 53.6 Winning times: 13:32.55
2007 - Bernard Lagat 52.1-52.0 Winning times: 13:45.87
2008 - kenenisa Bekele 53.87 winning times: 12:57.82
2009 - Keneneisa Bekele 53.71 winning times: 13:17.09
2011 - Mo Farah 52.51 winning time: 13:23.36
2012 - Mo Farah 52.94 winning time: 13:41.66
2013 - Mo Farah 53.44 winning time: 13:26.98
2015 - Mofarah 52.67 winning time: 13:50
2016 - Mo Farh 52.9 winning time: 13:03.3
2017 - Muktar Edris - 52.5 winning time: 13:32.79
2019 - Muktar Edris - 55 winning time: 12:58.85
2021 - Josh Cheptegei - 55.05 winning time: 12:58.15
2022 - Jakob - 53.93 - winning time 13:09.24
2023 - Jakob - 52.45 winning time: 13:11.3
2024 - Jakob - 53.2 winning time: 13:13.66
2025 - Hocker - 52.62 winning time: 12:58.30
That is already 20 out of 34 races either in sub 54 or sub 13. Now of these 20, the only ones to close in a sub 2:23 final K are (will still include sub 13 races):
1999 (won't include it too far back and final K was like 2:28 or something)
2003: Eliud Kipchoge - 2:24.33 winning times: 12:52.79
2008: Kenenisa Bekele - 2:25.30 winning time: 12:57.82
2013 - Mo Farah - 2:22.28 winning time 13:26.98
2015 - Mo Farah - 2:19.22 winning time 13:50
2017 - Muktar Edris - 2:21.04 winning time: 13:32.79
2019- Muktar Edris - 2:24.3 winning time: 12:58.85
2021 -Josh Cheptegei - 2:25.35 winning time: 12:58.15
2023- Jakob - 2:21.07 winning time: 13:11.30
2024 - Jakob - 2:21.1 winning time: 13:13.66
2025 - Hocker - 2:25.31 winning time: 12:58.30
Now if we narrow it down to sub 5 final 2000m (still including sub 13 races):
2003: Eliud Kipchoge - 5:07 winning time 12:52.79
2008: Kenenisa Bekele - 4:56.97 winning time 12:57.82
2013 Mo Farah - 4:59.19 winning time 13:26.98
2017 Muktar Edris - 4:59.27 winning time: 13:32.79
2019 Muktar Edris - 5:05 winning time: 12:58.85
2021 Josh Cheptegei 5:03 winning time: 12:58.15
2023 Jakob 4:56.69 Winning time 13:11.30
2024 Jakob 4:55.4 Winning time 13:13.66
2025 Hocker: 5:05.48 Winning time 12:58.30
Lastly, let's rank all of them by the fastest last 3k:
2013 Mo Farah: 7:48.87
2003 Eliud Kipchoge: 7:45.93
2017 Muktar Edris: 7:44.51
2019 Muktar Edris: 7:43.51
2021 Josh Cheptegei 7:43.15
2025 Hocker: 7:41.75
2008 Kenenisa Bekele - 7:35.53
2024 Jakob: 7:35.4
2023 Jakob: 7:34.45
So now, take a look at all of Jakobs splits, he has the fastest final 400m out of any runner in championship history other than Lagat (But his finishing time was 13:45 and we can all agree that is obscenely slow). He also has the fastest last kilometer out of any runner other than Farah (13:50) and Edris (13:32.79). He also has the fastest last 2k out of any other runner in history x2. And lastly, he has the fastest final 3k in history x2.
Jakob may possibly have the greatest 5000m kick of all time. To be able to run a 52 after a 2:21 Km, a 4:55 2k, and a 7:35 final 3k demonstrates GOAT kicking ability. Nobody else has done that before. It's equivalent to El Guerrouj running 1:46 for the final 800 in Athens. The ONLY runner in history who could have beat him in Budapest and Paris was Bekele as he arguably has the most impressive one off performance in championship 5000m history (2008). BUT, I think in a traditional final 2k burnup, Jakob will win every time.
When you lay it out like that, wow, Jakob really does have the best finishing speed and strength combined. Most people here already assumed he was the best 5000m Championship runner ever but this confirms it. Once he gets that WR + Olympic Gold in LA he'll be the GOAT. That plus a World Title in Beijing and there is no argument for anyone else.

Dumbstrong will "argue" against it regardless his achievements. He will always find one point where someone else has done better.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 10:52pm EDT

re: OACLover

OACLover wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Being the greatest kicker in the event isn't decided by the stopwatch but by who was beaten and how it was done with a finishing kick. El G's kick in Athens beating prime Bekele was greater than anything Ingebrigtsen has ever done. Farah repeatedly outkicking the best in the sport in successive global finals also puts him ahead of Ingebrigtsen - as does Bekele at his best.
No it isn't, it's defined by how fast you closed and comparing it to other fast closes in history. El G beating Bekele in a race where the final 1k wasn't even faster than 2:24 simply doesn't compare to Ingebrigtsen closing in 2:21. Ingebrigtsen's kick would in 23/24 would beat anyone in history other than 2008 Bekele. The splits show that.
Farah indeed won more 5000m titles than Ingebrigtsen, but in not a single one did he close as fast Ingebrigtsen. Put them in the same race and he loses every single time.

We will never put them in the same race so Farah remains ahead of Ingebrigtsen for championship victories over the 5k. After the last world's that is unlikely to change. Ingebrigtsen was truly The Man With No Kick.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 10:56pm EDT

re: OACLover

He has run the event a total of about 8 times in as many years. He almost matches Viren for being invisible in the event for long periods. That is hardly "showing up". (And Viren achieved a repeat double Olympic victory that Ingebrigtsen never will.)

8 months ago 10/03/2025 10:57pm EDT

re: OACLover

OACLover wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Jakob hasn't run enough 5k races to qualify as the greatest kicker in the event.
Olympic Champion, Two time world champion, 3x European Champion. Do you even know what you are talking about? He has been running the event since a teenager.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 10:59pm EDT

re: zzZzzZzzzZ

zzZzzZzzzZ wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
We will never know because he will likely never do it now. I would bet the house, the car and the dog his best years are behind him.
Not the wife?

It isn't necessary. He will be lucky to be even competing at the next Olympics.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 11:00pm EDT

re: armstrongrules

armstrongrules wrote:
snowflakes wrote:
When you lay it out like that, wow, Jakob really does have the best finishing speed and strength combined. Most people here already assumed he was the best 5000m Championship runner ever but this confirms it. Once he gets that WR + Olympic Gold in LA he'll be the GOAT. That plus a World Title in Beijing and there is no argument for anyone else.
Dumbstrong will "argue" against it regardless his achievements. He will always find one point where someone else has done better.

When you guys have to resort to name calling that can be taken as an acknowledgement of your loss.

8 months ago 10/03/2025 11:26pm EDT

re: Armweaklivs....

Armweaklivs.... wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
That's what this place is about.
Your obsessive posting about Jakob shows that's what you are about. No one writes more about him than you.

Are you guys lovers? Omg

8 months ago 10/04/2025 5:44am EDT

re: Marsha Marsha Marsha

Marsha Marsha Marsha wrote:
Armweaklivs.... wrote:
Your obsessive posting about Jakob shows that's what you are about. No one writes more about him than you.
Are you guys lovers? Omg

His is totally unrequited.

8 months ago 10/04/2025 6:16am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
ya just looking at this particular race, Jakob would likely have in the ballpark of a full second advantage at the bell.
Good point. He could never have won from being 12th at the bell.

That's why when he won his races he was never 12th at the bell, peabrain.

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