But I guess this where I can't quite join the dots. Sure if we catapult those guys into the year 2022 and they look around at the reality of the MD landscape they probably realize in order to be the best guys they need to train differently. But again it depends what your goals are? Let's assume Cram is in the same crop of Brits as Wightman and Kerr and has aspirations of the WR like Jakob might/does - like he's going to figure it out right? Maybe he doesn't get to 1.42.88 because he sacrifices what work he did to achieve that and focuses on trying to run under 7.30 for 3000m? Who knows? What I am sure of is that the consensus train of thought in that era was that the best way to run a fast 1500 was to also be fast over 800m and to try and have as much of a gap between your 800m PR and what you wanted to go through in a 1500/mile (as much as 10 seconds!!!!). That seems crazy now because we know that with the right training a more optimal differential with respect to the entire race can be as low as 5 or 6 seconds and with the right training focus it's the most effective.
I also don't see anyone criticizing his 800m training, I really don't. And to answer your question, the reason they didn't run faster was as exactly as you pointed out and is quite obvious yes, it was a lack of strength. If you asked Cram why he didn't/couldn't run 3.27.0 I'm sure it's the first answer he would give you.
The other reality seems to be that pace-making and chasing times in the 1500 and up took a major leap as the 80s went into the 90s. It was probably at its peak in the 90s when well-paid rabbits were going all the way to 300 or 400m to go. Now you have less good rabbits (though improving), but you have wavelight and more pure time trial races on the circuit. Coe having his PB from 1986 when he wasn't near his physical peak kinda underscores this point.
If you look at a race like Oslo last year, you have a score of guys running under 3:29.5 who just are in the right race to do it. Does anyone really think that Azeddine Habz is any better than Isaac Nader, George Mills or Reynold Cheruiyot? No, I don't think so. He just was in that race and they weren't. Give the British trio a bunch of 3:28-29 type races with better setups and you'd see better PBs and a higher volume of sub-3:31s.
Definitely the single most absurd post I've seen on this board. You're not impressed with Cram running 1:42 and 3:29? If he was around today running those times Jakob would be sh1t scared of him. It doesn't matter that he's run a 3:27 because you're going to get eaten up in a championship race if someone is in 1:42 shape.
And Coe's 1:41 didn't impress you either? Big lol. He was such a terrible middle distance runner he only ever won two Olympic golds. Let me guess... they don't count because of boycotts.
But the worst of the lot is Ovett being a 5k runner who "lacked talent" for mid d running.
You, sir, are an imbecile.
You are building a straw man, and burning it down, but you shouldn’t build and burn and read and write in your sleep, SleepingFireman..!
I didn’t write most of the things you are claiming: F.ex I didn’t say one single critical thing about Coe’s and Cram’s 800 metres. On the contrary: Their two laps are stellar achievements (Cram f.ex is today very proud of his 800m pb, with good reason!) And Coe’s mark was a WR with huge margin to Juantorena’s 1.43.43. And very much the same to their 1000 meters on low and high 2.12 -who among current MD athletes could dream of such times even today (even with better shoes and tracks!)
My point was exactly that Ovett, Coe and Cram were extraordinary good 800/1000m runners to have 1500m / mile as their main event. And therefore I am puzzled by how on earth these guys (with superb strides and racing knowledge) couldn’t even match Herb Elliott’s champ run in 1960 (3.35.6 on dirt, without pacers and so on -convertible to sub 3.30 with a good margin in my view). My answer were twofold: I think Coe’s lack of consistent good times in the 1500m (sub 3.30), and his very late (huge) pb mostly was because of too fast a first lap (to speedy pacers). And Cram ran his Bislett mile too conservatively (too much left on the last lap). And Ovett just prioritised the sit and kick…
But secondly (and this is my point): I think the three brits down prioritised the strength work too much compared to Jakob. I’m here speaking in relative terms - I know all three had strength… But this is only my (and quite a few others) fluffy opinion / hypothesis. -There’s no way of knowing for sure, and different athletes may need different training. But it is exciting that Cram and Ingebrigtsen (along with f.ex Nordås) seem to differ so much in training philosophy…
This imbecile thing you call me -I think that mostly reflects my sayings about Ovett and lack of talent. Well, I giggled a little when I wrote it -knew most wouldn’t even try to understand what I meant. And again I’m a little puzzled why posters seem so offended (firstly on behalf of Ovett -my “disrespect”- don’t you know that Ovett wouldn’t care less if some random Norwegian idiot writes what I write -Ovett knows he would have the respect and support from almost the whole running community. And secondly: I sort of offended all truth and reason. -But why not paying some attention to what I really are trying to say (that of course is only a very subjective opinion, and interpretation of what a talented runner “really” is):
In my opinion Ovett wasn’t a good runner. But he was a stellar racer. Isn’t that the same (good runner / good racer)? Well, in most posters mind this seem to be exactly the same. But not in mine..
In Moscow Olympics 800m final there were one particularly good runner, one particularly good racer, one (well, several actually, but for the sake of it I say one) mediocre (800m) runner, and one particularly bad (800m) racer. Coe was the good one (runner), and the bad one (racer), and Ovett was the mediocre (runner) and good one (racer). Ovett won… So was Ovett a good, talented 800m runner (we are here talking relatively, on a very high level)? No he wasn’t -in my humble opinion. (But of course a God compared to f.ex me).
And the same in the 1500m: He was one of the best racers I have seen. (And I watched him a lot live, and my running comrades and me all knew who would accelerate -another supreme feather he had, along with the positioning skills- at the home straight and beat Walker and Wessinghage and Scott every single time. And his relaxed elegant style was a mirroring of the later elegance him self -Lagat…) Well, some time later I was a little irritated on Ovett, because I thought it was too much ducking between him and Coe, but first and foremost a waste of talent on this (slow) sit and kick strategy. So I rewatched a lot of races -I was surprised: Ovett seemed fragile when really tested in the 1500m, and 3.30.77 seemed a proper pb. So maybe he just did what he had to do, and wasted nothing… But his 2 mile WR (vs Rono) showed so much potential above the mid distances -along with his relaxed and lean and powerful form and stride one simply cannot call him less talented (I chose to do it provocatively in the md to stress the point that racing and running -fast- are two different things), but I obviously think he theoretically f.ex could have run a stellar 3000m. So him being without an overall stellar talent: Of course not at all…
Doesn't need to open with 1:49. He can break the WR with a 1:52 first 800m.
Jakob can? the 1500m? Opening with 1.52 through 800m?
Hmmm, even if this is 1.52.00, he needs to then run the next 700m in under 1.34 to break it - do you realize how fast that is? 1.47.4 pace. So you think it's possible he goes 54 flat for the 3rd lap and then closes in 40 flat?
There is no chance even El Guerrouj could have done that my friend.
Doesn't need to open with 1:49. He can break the WR with a 1:52 first 800m.
Jakob can? the 1500m? Opening with 1.52 through 800m?
Hmmm, even if this is 1.52.00, he needs to then run the next 700m in under 1.34 to break it - do you realize how fast that is? 1.47.4 pace. So you think it's possible he goes 54 flat for the 3rd lap and then closes in 40 flat?
There is no chance even El Guerrouj could have done that my friend.
If he is capable of doing that he would be more than capable of 1:49 for the first 800. But he isn't. He isn't a sub-1:44 guy.
Probably 1500 only training would be better suited for championship style 1500m races rather than 5k training.
If Jakob could run 46-47 wouldn't a 1:49 split be much more feasible?
Jakob could never get near 46-47. If he could he would be running 1:42-43. I doubt he could run a 400 much faster than 50-flat (incidentally, about the same as Elliott, who ran 1:46x for the 800 on sh*ttier tracks).
1:43 speed with his engine. Sheesh! that would be something.
Jakob could never get near 46-47. If he could he would be running 1:42-43. I doubt he could run a 400 much faster than 50-flat (incidentally, about the same as Elliott, who ran 1:46x for the 800 on sh*ttier tracks).
1:43 speed with his engine. Sheesh! that would be something.
Jakob can? the 1500m? Opening with 1.52 through 800m?
Hmmm, even if this is 1.52.00, he needs to then run the next 700m in under 1.34 to break it - do you realize how fast that is? 1.47.4 pace. So you think it's possible he goes 54 flat for the 3rd lap and then closes in 40 flat?
There is no chance even El Guerrouj could have done that my friend.
If he is capable of doing that he would be more than capable of 1:49 for the first 800. But he isn't. He isn't a sub-1:44 guy.
Agreed! To split through 1:49 and then run a 1:34 700 he'd HAVE to be a sub-1:44 guy and I agree with you - he isn't and probably never would be. I'm ok with him not breaking the 1500 WR. Even if he doesn't his 3k/5k ability is going to be lights out for us fans the next few years.
If he is capable of doing that he would be more than capable of 1:49 for the first 800. But he isn't. He isn't a sub-1:44 guy.
Agreed! To split through 1:49 and then run a 1:34 700 he'd HAVE to be a sub-1:44 guy and I agree with you - he isn't and probably never would be. I'm ok with him not breaking the 1500 WR. Even if he doesn't his 3k/5k ability is going to be lights out for us fans the next few years.
Doesn't need to open with 1:49. He can break the WR with a 1:52 first 800m.
Jakob can? the 1500m? Opening with 1.52 through 800m?
Hmmm, even if this is 1.52.00, he needs to then run the next 700m in under 1.34 to break it - do you realize how fast that is? 1.47.4 pace. So you think it's possible he goes 54 flat for the 3rd lap and then closes in 40 flat?
There is no chance even El Guerrouj could have done that my friend.
Agree! Who else here is OK with Jakob not getting the 1500m WR? I am! I think I'm more excited by the fact the even the way he is training he can still run 3:27/3:43. Let's be positive and look forward those 3k and 5k WR's!
It is not certain that [Kerr] runs any better now than last year at the same time; he did not run two miles then,” Ingebrigtsen, who owns the outdoor 2 mile world best of 7:54.10, told TV2 in Norway. “I would have beaten him in that race, blindfolded … But it’s good that people run better than they have done before.
He does not seem to have had his confidence shaken
And he shouldn't. 7:54 and 8:00 are two completely different worlds, even if 1 was indoor and the other outdoor. 6 seconds at that pace is not close.
Cram knows what it takes to run the 1500. I think he's right, that beating the wr for the event is a speed issue for Jakob. He is probably already at his speed limit for the event, which means to try to run faster puts him sooner into oxygen debt.
I’m not totally sure, but I suspect Jakob doesn’t agree with you (or Cram) -here is what Jakob answered in 2019 when Cram pretty much said the same as now:
And so far Jakob is right since he is 3 seconds faster in the 1500m than in 2019 without caring about the 800m (which he of course can run faster if he made an honest try).
I've never set foot on a track, but isn't it about having a 'change of pace' as much as having 800m speed? Ovett used to specifically train for his kick, and Coe famously trained to have three different 'gears'.
Well, I guess this applies more to Jakob winning 1500m finals than breaking the world record.
exactly,
Ovett had a 21x 200m as a youngster FAT same as Coe
So either of them could have been a 45x 400m runner, if they choose sprinting exclusively.
Ovett choose to be a miler, and his kick evolved to being good for maybe 200 or so meters, and if someone had 300m kick in them, he lost it was the traning. The 800 was something Ovett was completely natural for, and won medals in it, in his spare time
Coe however choose to be 800 nd 1500 runner and could produce the 100m spurt at 11x, which is handy. Coe is pretty much the only hybrid at both distances, and in fact, his training compromised both distances, where if he focused exclusively on one or the other, he'd still have the World record, abeit, if he managed to get good pacing and drafted propertly.
Coe was very lousy in following pace, and a pretty erratic racer as well, where talent covered up lousy tactics.
It is not certain that [Kerr] runs any better now than last year at the same time; he did not run two miles then,” Ingebrigtsen, who owns the outdoor 2 mile world best of 7:54.10, told TV2 in Norway. “I would have beaten him in that race, blindfolded … But it’s good that people run better than they have done before.
He does not seem to have had his confidence shaken
And he shouldn't. 7:54 and 8:00 are two completely different worlds, even if 1 was indoor and the other outdoor. 6 seconds at that pace is not close.
World athletics gives the indoor 2 mile of 8:00.67 1310 points vs 7:54.10 outdoor at 1304.
Coe's main event was really the 800. Even in most of his later career he was at least as committed to that as the 15.
The reasons why Cram's and Coe's 1500m times aren't in the sub-3:29 range are because they didn't have the benefit of EPO or modern supershoes and because Coe's best distance was about 1k and Cram's was about 1200. Maybe Cram could have knocked a half second or so off but 3:29.77 was probably the upper bound for Coe.
It's absurd to say that Ovett was "only" a stellar racer. He just wasn't as interested in racing for times in his peak years of 78 and 79. His 3:30.77 would indeed have been his maximum ability in 83 partly because of the railings injury in 82 and partly because he was somewhat on the downswing having been an athlete who developed very early. I am certain he could have run under 3:30 earlier in his career but 3:32 was considered a super-rapid time back then and it seems his attitude was "that's good enough for me".
In my opinion Ovett wasn’t a good runner. But he was a stellar racer. Isn’t that the same (good runner / good racer)? Well, in most posters mind this seem to be exactly the same. But not in mine..
Dude - with all due respect. I think it's clear English isn't your native language (Norsk?) which honestly makes your writing etc very impressive. But come on now - Steve Ovett not a good runner? A 3.45 1500m runner is a good runner okay - a 1.44.0/3.30/3.48/7.41 runner that won Olympic medals (including a gold) and broke multiple WR's (traded them back and forth with a guy many still believe is still the greatest of all time (Coe) is not just a great runner, he's an all-time great. Whatever translation or logic you are applying here, to say Stephen Michael James Ovett "wasn't a good runner" - you're better than that.
Sure you can characterize/pigeon hole those guys if you want based on their strengths which is fine. Ovett the "great racer", Coe the "great front-runner", Cram maybe the "most naturally talented" - whatever, but all of them fall into the generic categorization of all-time greats we have had in this sport.
Definitely the single most absurd post I've seen on this board. You're not impressed with Cram running 1:42 and 3:29? If he was around today running those times Jakob would be sh1t scared of him. It doesn't matter that he's run a 3:27 because you're going to get eaten up in a championship race if someone is in 1:42 shape.
And Coe's 1:41 didn't impress you either? Big lol. He was such a terrible middle distance runner he only ever won two Olympic golds. Let me guess... they don't count because of boycotts.
But the worst of the lot is Ovett being a 5k runner who "lacked talent" for mid d running.
You, sir, are an imbecile.
You are building a straw man, and burning it down, but you shouldn’t build and burn and read and write in your sleep, SleepingFireman..!
I didn’t write most of the things you are claiming: F.ex I didn’t say one single critical thing about Coe’s and Cram’s 800 metres. On the contrary: Their two laps are stellar achievements (Cram f.ex is today very proud of his 800m pb, with good reason!) And Coe’s mark was a WR with huge margin to Juantorena’s 1.43.43. And very much the same to their 1000 meters on low and high 2.12 -who among current MD athletes could dream of such times even today (even with better shoes and tracks!)
My point was exactly that Ovett, Coe and Cram were extraordinary good 800/1000m runners to have 1500m / mile as their main event. And therefore I am puzzled by how on earth these guys (with superb strides and racing knowledge) couldn’t even match Herb Elliott’s champ run in 1960 (3.35.6 on dirt, without pacers and so on -convertible to sub 3.30 with a good margin in my view). My answer were twofold: I think Coe’s lack of consistent good times in the 1500m (sub 3.30), and his very late (huge) pb mostly was because of too fast a first lap (to speedy pacers). And Cram ran his Bislett mile too conservatively (too much left on the last lap). And Ovett just prioritised the sit and kick…
But secondly (and this is my point): I think the three brits down prioritised the strength work too much compared to Jakob. I’m here speaking in relative terms - I know all three had strength… But this is only my (and quite a few others) fluffy opinion / hypothesis. -There’s no way of knowing for sure, and different athletes may need different training. But it is exciting that Cram and Ingebrigtsen (along with f.ex Nordås) seem to differ so much in training philosophy…
This imbecile thing you call me -I think that mostly reflects my sayings about Ovett and lack of talent. Well, I giggled a little when I wrote it -knew most wouldn’t even try to understand what I meant. And again I’m a little puzzled why posters seem so offended (firstly on behalf of Ovett -my “disrespect”- don’t you know that Ovett wouldn’t care less if some random Norwegian idiot writes what I write -Ovett knows he would have the respect and support from almost the whole running community. And secondly: I sort of offended all truth and reason. -But why not paying some attention to what I really are trying to say (that of course is only a very subjective opinion, and interpretation of what a talented runner “really” is):
In my opinion Ovett wasn’t a good runner. But he was a stellar racer. Isn’t that the same (good runner / good racer)? Well, in most posters mind this seem to be exactly the same. But not in mine..
In Moscow Olympics 800m final there were one particularly good runner, one particularly good racer, one (well, several actually, but for the sake of it I say one) mediocre (800m) runner, and one particularly bad (800m) racer. Coe was the good one (runner), and the bad one (racer), and Ovett was the mediocre (runner) and good one (racer). Ovett won… So was Ovett a good, talented 800m runner (we are here talking relatively, on a very high level)? No he wasn’t -in my humble opinion. (But of course a God compared to f.ex me).
And the same in the 1500m: He was one of the best racers I have seen. (And I watched him a lot live, and my running comrades and me all knew who would accelerate -another supreme feather he had, along with the positioning skills- at the home straight and beat Walker and Wessinghage and Scott every single time. And his relaxed elegant style was a mirroring of the later elegance him self -Lagat…) Well, some time later I was a little irritated on Ovett, because I thought it was too much ducking between him and Coe, but first and foremost a waste of talent on this (slow) sit and kick strategy. So I rewatched a lot of races -I was surprised: Ovett seemed fragile when really tested in the 1500m, and 3.30.77 seemed a proper pb. So maybe he just did what he had to do, and wasted nothing… But his 2 mile WR (vs Rono) showed so much potential above the mid distances -along with his relaxed and lean and powerful form and stride one simply cannot call him less talented (I chose to do it provocatively in the md to stress the point that racing and running -fast- are two different things), but I obviously think he theoretically f.ex could have run a stellar 3000m. So him being without an overall stellar talent: Of course not at all…
I did disagree with your original post, but I think there are some valid points in here.
Ovett wasn't near Coe at 800m in terms of ability to run a fast time. He was a very good runner the kind of race the Olympics turned out to be. Somewhat reminds me of what Coe said about Tom McKean, who wasn't super quick, whom Coe described as "very dangerous in a 1:45 type race).
There wasn't much between Ovett and Coe on time over 1500m/mile (obviously, as the flip-flopped the records several times). Ovett wasn't quite the same after the fall on the railings (which happened before the world-record 1500m at Rieti). He did get very fit for the next Olympics, but then suffered the breathing/heart problem, which subsequently prevented him training with the intensity needed for peak 1500m performance. It's hard to believe that without those problems he would have run at least as a past his peak, 30-year-old Coe did.
I was actually there when Ovett defeated Rono over 2 miles and he was traveling with ease throughout, comfortably covering Rono's surges. Given some of his performances in longer events that were either for fun or training (fastest long leg on the Southern Road Relay at least once; 65 min half-marathon win over British Marathon Champion as a training run; win in the Inter-Counties X-Country at 7 1/2 miles; good runs in the National X-Country Championship at 9 miles), it's at least conceivable that he would have been as good if not better at 3000m than 1500m.
His 5000m potential is tantalizing. He never seriously tried it before he he had the fall and the breathing/cardio problems. Never ran really quickly, but Harry Wilson (coach) thought he was in world record shape at one point in 1987. He did beat Mark Nenow in Dublin, and Jack Buckner and TIm Hutchings (first and fourth in European Championship 5000m later that year) very comfortably in the Commonwealth.