They should be treated like the Russians. No international competition for any athlete until they get their act together.
But that will never happen.
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Armstronglivs wrote:
66696666 wrote:
No, it's based mainly on the thousands of Kenyan distance runners who have won hundreds of races and placed high in thousands all over the world since well over 60 years.
And now we know how.
The reasons for the enormous Kenyan success right after the country became independent are well known since decades.
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50 more Kenyans failed NNN.
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Coevett wrote:
Will be revealed at end of the month. Stock up on the popcorn! And well done the ADAK for doing their job.
The sad truth is that if USADA was doing its job they'd have over 50 busts every single year.
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Bonds was already a great player and first ballot hall of famer before the steroids. The steroids brought a late career Bonds to a level far beyond any other previous ballplayer, and he was still absolutely dominating when pressure brought the Giants to stop bringing him back.
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Hence, the Bonds comparison tells us that hugely talented Kenyan runners would become dominating with drugs, both from the placebo and the physiological effects, whereas average but hard working Kenyan runners would become very good and capable of cleaning up on the roads.
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Keino's 3:34 is not the sea level equivalent of 3:22 for a Kenyan born and raised and trained at altitude. We've seen various 3:28-29 Kenyans run low 3:30s at altitude in recent years.
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zxcvzxvc wrote:
Hence, the Bonds comparison tells us that hugely talented Kenyan runners would become dominating with drugs, both from the placebo and the physiological effects, whereas average but hard working Kenyan runners would become very good and capable of cleaning up on the roads.
Right that was exactly my point. And this is not in any way proof that the Kenyans and Ethiopians would not be at some advantage if nobody uses PEDs. We don’t know for sure but the data indicates that Coevett is incorrect and in denial.
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zxcvzxvc wrote:
Keino's 3:34 is not the sea level equivalent of 3:22 for a Kenyan born and raised and trained at altitude. We've seen various 3:28-29 Kenyans run low 3:30s at altitude in recent years.
KK’s 3:34 is not the sea level equivalent of 3:22 for anyone, for that matter, which I am sure you know.
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
I would suggest including road times in your 10K calculations. The track times aren't a very accurate snapshot, and there is no money to be made running track 10Ks besides Worlds so it is not run. Alternatively the Half Marathon is probably a more competitive event (by time) outside of the Worlds 10K at this juncture.
OK. I didn't include them at first because they started in the 80s/70s, but here you go (I included marathon again to show all these road races together):
Kenyans in the top 10
Period: 10k + HM + M = total
1960s: NA + NA + 0 = 0
1970s: NA + NA + 0 = 0
1980s: 5 + 1 + 0 = 6
1990s: 8 + 7 + 5 = 20
2000s: 7 + 8 + 7 = 22
2010s: 9 + 5 + 4 = 18
2020s: 6 + 6 + 7 = 19
All time: 7 + 6 + 6 = 19>2017: 6 + 6 + 7 = 19 (since AIU)
<2017: 9 + 7 + 7 = 23 (before AIU)
<1990: 5 + 1 + 0 = 6 (before EPO)20 -
if Kenya wants to clean up their reputation, then i really hope they don't hold back from revealing kipchoge if he is dirty.
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Coevett wrote:
and then Keino runs the sea level equivalent of 3:22...in 1968 off of a stay in hospital.
Imagine if Steve Ovett had climbed out of his hospital bed in LA for the mens 1500 final and front ran his way to victory in 3:22?
It seems you finally accepted that Keino was the greatest runner in history.
And, yes, it's laughable just to think that Ovett could run within 5 seconds of Keino over 1500m.
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Trollism, Kenyans dominated not because they improved a lot, but because >European and American athletes were no more able to repeat the same times of the 70-87. Example was the marathon, event where British runners had a great history : Jim Peters WR holder just before Abebe Bikila, than Ron Hill able to run in 2:09:28 in 1970, then Ian Thompson 2:09:16 in 1974, then Charles Spedding 2:08:33 in 1985, then the great Steve Jones 2:07:13 always in 1985, then, in 2003... the best marathon runners of UK was a woman (Paula Radcliffe, 2:15:25) !
Do you want some other example from a different event ? Look at 1500m : at the end of 1991 the all-time list UK saw in the first 9 positions the following athletes :
1- Steve Cram 3'29"67 (1985)
2- Sebastian Coe 3'29"77 (1986)
3- Steve Ovett 3'30"77 (1983)
4- Peter Elliott 3'32"69 (1990)
5- Steve Crabb 3'33"34 (1987)
6- Dave Moorcroft 3'33"79 (1982)
7- John Robson 3'33"83 (1979)
8- Matthew Yates 3'34"00 (1991)
9- Graham Williamson 3'34"01 (1983)
In 2011, the best British runner of 1500m was James Shane (3'36"22 !).
Somebody can explain me the correlation between the continue decrease of the British (but also American and European) performances IN ALL THE EVENT with the (supposed) doping of Kenyans and Ethiopians runners, THAT IN THE MOST PART OF CASES DIDN'T RUN FASTER THAN THE ATHLETES OF 20 YEARS BEFORE ?
Nobody denies the bad problem of doping in Kenya, but to speak about "domination" without considering that for almost 20 years african competed AGAINST NOBODY is demonstration of absolute ignorance of the athletics history, making African runners guilty only because maintained the same level of 20 years before (something European and American were not able to do).
Now, that Europeans and Americans finally started running again WITH RIGHT VOLUME OF AEROBIC TRAINING, athletes of western nations are competitive again. Dont make guilty who continued training with right volume and intensity, make guilty the runners that for 20 years decided to prepare ENDURANCE distances with technical choices not good for junior athletes too.
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66696666 wrote:
It seems you finally accepted that Keino was the greatest runner in history.
And, yes, it's laughable just to think that Ovett could run within 5 seconds of Keino over 1500m.
Most doped 1500m runner in history.
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Coevett wrote:
66696666 wrote:
It seems you finally accepted that Keino was the greatest runner in history.
And, yes, it's laughable just to think that Ovett could run within 5 seconds of Keino over 1500m.
Most doped 1500m runner in history.
If he hasn't used roller skates, with 3:22 without any doubt he is the greatest runner ever.
And you were so right, that Ovett never was capable to do what Keino has done. The '68 Keino would beat the '80 Ovett over 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m, steeple. Ovett would win over 800m.
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
I mean your name is trollism...
Renato has explained how Kenyans got pushed into the marathon, and became a powerhouse. You could extend this also to how European coaches/agents (Kim McDonald who managed Steve Ovett and the like) came into Kenya and invested in the athletes with training camps and more in the 90s. So is it EPO or investment from the West? Both? To put it completely on one or the other is naive.
It was EPO and the dodgy Euro doctor/agent/managers that saw Kenyan athletes as a gold mine. I'll agree with you on that one, the dodgy Euros brought the EPO and it basically ruined the sport.
They found a pool of talented athletes that could either be manipulated into cheating or more likely were completely comfortable with chetating and they milked it for all their worth.
Wouldn't you do the same if you knew there would be zero repercussions?
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trollism wrote:
It was EPO and the dodgy Euro doctor/agent/managers that saw Kenyan athletes as a gold mine. I'll agree with you on that one, the dodgy Euros brought the EPO and it basically ruined the sport.
They found a pool of talented athletes that could either be manipulated into cheating or more likely were completely comfortable with chetating and they milked it for all their worth.
Wouldn't you do the same if you knew there would be zero repercussions?
I think where you are mistaken/naive thinking that the sport was some bastion of purity before the existence of EPO. Athletes like Viren have been widely accused of doping. Of course steroids have been around forever. Your worldview is East Africans running fast in the 90s “ruined the sport” but honestly the bigger outliers from that era vs now hail from North Africa. East Africans still dominate the marathon/half marathon.
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Coevett wrote:
Yocie wrote:
Coevett you don’t want clean sport. You want white sport. Shame on you. Amazing this site has tolerated your racism.
OK, so I've been arguing here since something like 2016 that the reason for Kenyan success has been doping rather than 'natural born running genes', and since then there have been over 300 Kenyan busts, including Olympic champions and world record holders, and over 50 more today announced, but your take is that I'm just a racist.
This is the equivalent of you going on to StormFront, claiming that the reason why whites dominate Harvard admissions is because of cheating and favoritism rather than any supposed 'superior IQ' of white people, and then over the next ten years it emerges there has been rampant cheating and favoritism benefitting white students at the expense of black candidates, and still the Stormfront NAZIs accuse YOU of being an anti-white racist.
Well it has been proven that whites dominate ivy league admissions not because of superior IQ, but because of cheating. Where have you been? There has been a major court case about this. Just google college admission cheating scandal, why don'tca...
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