All time greatest 800m Runner

Geelong Runner wrote:

I run an 800m Running Facebook page. I have recently decided to rank the best 800m runners of the modern era (1960 onwards) using a subjective list of criteria, and marking each runner against each criteria. I shared the rankings on the page over 10 days, counting down 10-1.
Ive copied the article below. Hopefully will generate some comment/debate as it did on the Facebook page. I'm sure there are still some errors/omissions and Id love the feedback. Remember, this is an attempt at a subjective list, and I ran the criteria and tried not to have any preconceived ideas on who would come out on top:
It’s the age-old question- who is the greatest 800m runner of all time?
Whilst a few names for this title will pop up automatically to any fan of middle distance running, I thought it would be an interesting exercise to bring some objectivity into this debate. I would rank the top 10 athletes of the modern era from 10-1.
I did this by establishing a list of criteria and assigning an importance to each of these criteria. For example, times ran and Major Championship results had a larger loading than the other criteria I used. These criteria were:
.Times: World Records, how long did the record last, how many times did they run a certain time. 15 points
.Major Titles: How the athlete performed in the big two – Olympics and World Championships with more of an emphasis on the Olympics. 15 points
.Other Major Honours: This is a level below the big two, and includes area championships, Commonwealth Games, World Junior championships, World University Games, NCAA.
10 points
.Longevity: How long did the athlete perform at the highest level? 10 points
.Impact on the Event: Did the athlete change the way 800m was run? Are they celebrated by middle distance fans? 10 points
.Global Impact: Are they known beyond the niche middle distance fraternity? 5 points
.Performance in other events: I rated this criterion lower as it is a purely 800m ranking list, not a middle distance list. 5 points.
I also discounted champion 800m runners before the 60’s , so in effect this is a rankings
list for the modern era. I did this for several reasons:
·The competition pool was not as deep before the .60’s, which saw the emergence of the East Africans.
·Due to the amateur nature of the sport, most athletes did not have the longevity in the sport as opportunities were extremely limited. Athletes had to get a job to support their families.
·Opportunities to compete in championships outside the Olympics were more limited.
·It is difficult to compare times between eras, due to improved track conditions, better footwear etc. When the world record hit the 1.44’s I considered this to be the cut off time for inclusion.
·There is less information about these athletes to be found, making it harder to compare to athletes from the modern era, and to assess their impact across the sport and wider community.
Because of this cut off, apologies are extended to Mel Sheppard, Douglas Lowe, Mal Whitfield, Rudolf Harbig and Arthur Wint, who given different circumstances would more than likely have been included.
After completing this analysis, I could see the cream rising to the top, with only a couple of minor deviations from the way I would have ranked the top 4 initially. However, it was at the lower level where the surprises occurred. For example, I was surprised with Yuri Borzakovskiy’s
results and consistency over many years, when I had not previously considered him to be a top 10 contender.
So without further ado, here’s the list from 1 to 16.
1. DAVID RUDISHA
Times: 15/15: Has broken the world record three times, including Winning and breaking the World Record in the 2012 Olympic final, undoubtedly the greatest 800m race of all time. Has held the world record now for 13 years
Major Titles 15/15: Double Olympic Champion, Double World Champion
Other Major Honours 10/10: 2x African Champion, 2xDiamond League final winner, 1x World Cup winner, 1x World Athletics Final winner, 1x World Junior Champion.
Longevity 10/10: Ran 1.44 or faster 11 years in a row, One of only 4 double Olympic Champions.
Impact on the event 9/10: Front running a world record in the Olympics changed the way people thought about the event. Is regarded by most as the best of all time.
Global Impact: 4/5: Olympic Gold bought Rudisha’s talents to the world. Almost
every track fan would have Rudisha amongst their favourites
Performance in other Events: 2.5/5. Has run a hand timed 45.2 but no championships in any other event , and only a 2.19 1k and no 1500m recorded. #2 all time 600m
Overall: 65.5/70
Rudisha is the complete performer over 800m. The pure 800m
specialist, Rudisha is the current world record holder and won everything that
was available for him to won.
2.PETER SNELL
Times : 15/15 Broke the world record on grass, in a time that is still the NZ record 61 years later. WR over 800m, 880 yds, 1000m
Major Titles 15/15: One of only 4 double Olympic Champions over 800m.
Other Major Honours: 8/10: Won the Commonwealth games 800m in 1962 in the only event that was available to him in that era.
Longevity/Consistency: 9/10: Double Olympic Champion in an era when most runners retired early.
Impact on the event: 9/10: Widely regarded as one of the greatest. His WR on grass is still spoken about in hushed terms.
Global Impact: 4/5 Athletics was very popular across the globe in that era, and Snell's Olympic wins gave him a lot of attention.
Performance in other events: 5/5: 1500m Olympic and Comonwealth Games Champion. WR holder over 1000m , Mile, 4xMile.
Summary: 65/70
Snell rightfully takes his place in the Pantheon of legendary 800m runners.
3. SEBASTIAN COE
Times 15/15: Two World Records outdoors and two indoors, with the last World Record making Coe the fastest person over 800m by nearly 2 seconds at the time. His 1.41.73 stood for 16 years
Major titles: 12/15: No golds to show for his efforts, but 2 Olympic Silvers is nothing to be sneezed at.
Other Major Honours: 7/10: 1x European Champion1 gold, 1 silver 1 bronze European Championships, 1 World Cup. Coes trophy cabinet is a little threadbare over 800m.
Longevity/Consistency: 10/10: Medalling in the 1978 European Championships and still running 800’s at the 1990 Commonwealth Games. Ran 1.44 or better 12 times in 14 years
Impact on the Event: 10/10: In the 80’s no one was bigger than Coe.
Global Impact 5/5: The world stopped for the Coe/Ovett clash in Moscow in 1980. Coes impact continues as president of World Athletics.
Performance in other events 5/5: Double Olympic Champion over 1500m, multiple world record holder over 1000m, 1500m, mile. Even ran for GB in the 400m
Summary: 64/70
With his style and silky-smooth stride, Coe is almost everyone’s favourite 800m runner. One of 3 in the top 10 to not win an Olympic Gold over 800m
4. WILSON KIPKETER:
Times 15/15: Broke the outdoor WR twice and equalled it once. Smashed the World Indoor Record twice on one weekend.
Major Titles 14/15: 3 World Titles, but the Olympic title eluded him, with a silver and bronze.
Other Major Honours: 8/10: World indoor gold, 2x World Indoor Silver, Gold European Championships.
Longevity/Consistency: 10/10: Ran 1.43 or faster 10 year in a row, Ran 3 World Championships and 3 European Championships.
Impact on the Event: 8/10: Renowned as a great 800m runner but maybe not
given the recognition he deserved.
Global Impact 3/5: Relatively unknown outside of middle-distance aficionados.
Performance in Other Events: 3/5 World Indoor 1000m Record, has run a sub 4-minute mile, but not much else, including no recorded 400 or 1500m time in World Athletics.
Overall: 63/70
Extremely underrated, mostly due to his lack of a gold medal
in the Olympics. However, 3 World Titles and 4 World Records (indoors and out)places
him amongst the greatest. One of 3 in the top 10 to not win an Olympic Gold
over 800m.
5.ALBERTO JUANTORENA
Times: 15/15 Two World Records
Major Titles: 14/15 Olympic Champion 1976.
Other Major Honours 8/10: 1x World Cup winner, 2x World University Games winner. 1x Pan American Games Silver. Won what was available to him in the era.
Longevity/Consistency: 8/10: Ran 1.45 or better 6 years in a row. Two Olympic finals.
Impact on the Event: 9/10: Changed the way people saw the typical 800m runner – a big powerful guy fast enough to win the Olympic 400m title.
Global impact: 2.5/5: Coming from Cuba, was relatively unknown outside of athletics.
Performance in Other Events 5/5: Olympic 400m
Champion
Overall :61.5/70
Big guys can win Olympic 800m gold (and back up in the 400m
for good measure)
6. JOAQUIM CRUZ
Times: 14.5/15: Missed the WR by 0.04. At one stage he had the 2nd, 4th , 5th and 5th
fastest times in history.
Major Titles: 14/15 : 1x Olympic Gold, 1x Olympic silver, 1x World Championship Bronze.
Other Major Honours: 6/10: NCAA Champion, Pan American Champion
Longevity/Consistency: 9/10: Ran 1.46 or better 10 years in a row.
Impact on the Event: 8/10: Recognised as one of the greatest and most consistent.
Global Impact : 3.5/5 Relatively unknown outside of athletics circles. Olympic Semi Finalist over 1500m.
Performance in other events: 3.5/5: 1x Pan American Champion over 1500m, PB 3.34.Olympic Semi Finallist
Overall: 58.5/70
8. YURI BORZAKOVSKIY
Times: 12/15: Multiple sub 1.43 times.
Major Titles: 14/15: 1x Olympic Gold, 2 World Championship Silver, 2 World Championship Bronze.
Other Major Honours: 10/10 1x World indoor Championships gold,1x Silver, 1x European Championships Gold, 2x European Indoor Championships Gold.
Longevity/Consistency 10/10: Ran 1.45 or better 14 years in a row.
Impact on the event: 6/10: A fantastic runner , very consistent. I was surprised at how much
he had actually won.
Global Impact 1/5: Little known outside of middle-distance fans.
Performance in other events: 3.5/5: Ran 45.9 and competed internationally for the Soviet Union in 400m and 4x400m. 3.40 1500m.
Overall: 56.5/70
A dark horse in these rankings, I was very surprised at his
continued excellence over many years
8 STEVE OVETT.
Times: 10/15: Ovetts times do not reflect what he was capable of.
Major Titles: 13.5/15 Olympic Champion 1980, 3 Olympic Finals over 800m.
Other Major Honours: 6/10: 2x European Silvers, 1x European Junior Champion.
Longevity/Consistency: 8/10: Ran 1.45 or better 8 years out of 10. 3 consecutive Olympic Finals.
Impact on the Event: 8/10 Won the Olympic title in his non preferred event.
Global Impact :4.5/5 Coe/Ovett captured the worlds imagination in the 80’s and helped bring in the era of professional athletes.
Performance in Other Events : 4.5/5. Multiple World Records over distances from 1500m to 2 mile. Championship medals over 1500m ,5000m , but Olympic gold over his main event eluded him.
Summary: 55.5/70
Ovett would surely have been ranked higher if his times
reflected his talent
9. EMMANUEL KORIR
Times 13.5/15: Korir is the 6th best performer of all time over 800m.
Major Titles: 14.5/15. 1x Olympic Champion, 1x world Champion.
Other Honours 8/10: 1x World Cup winner, 1x NCAA Champion, 3x Diamond League Final Winner.
Longevity /Consistency: 6/10 Has run 1.43 or better 5 seasons in a row. Most recent season cost him a higher ranking.
Impact on the event 5.5/10 Is compiling an impressive resume and could become one of the greats.
Global Impact: 1/5: Unknown outside of running community.
Performance In Other Events: 3.5/5: World
Championship finalist over 400m, 44.21 PB
Overall: 52/70
Korir is fast establishing himself as one of the greats and could move up this list significantly if he continues the same trajectory over the next few years if he can recapture his 2021/2022 form.
10. ANDRE BUCHER:
Times: 13.5/15 PB of 1.42.55
Major Titles: 12.5/15 1 World Championship.
Other Major Honours: 8/10 2 Euro Championship silvers, 1 world Indoor championship Bronze
Longevity/consistency: 9/10 Ran sub 1.46 10 years out of 11
Impact on the event: 5/10
Global impact: 1/5
Performance in other events:. 2.5/5 46.32, 3.38. No major championships
Overall 51.5/70

Other rankings
#16 Billy Konchellah 47/70
#15 Dave Wottle 47.5/70
#14 Paul Ereng 48/70
#13 Mbulaeni Mulaudzi 48.5/70
#12 Ralph Doubell 50/70
#11 Vebjorn Rodal 50.5/70

Armstronglivs wrote:

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

Haha wow - not a lot of support for that one - love to know why.

Really the clear and major protagonists are:

-Whitfield

-Ryun

-Wottle

-Gray

-Symmonds

-Brazier

(yes Ted Meredith was WR holder and OC but this was 1912 and we have to have some comparison across eras and relative competition/evolution of the event at the time).

So let's do a process of elimination. Ryun ran an estimated 1.44.3 (1.44.9 for 880) which tied the WR at the time, but as mentioned he was more decorated over the 1500m (never won any color medal in any meet of note) so he's out of the discussion. Symmonds broke 1.43, won multiple US titles and has the high point of a world silver. He was as consistent as they come in terms of world 800m runners from 2009-2013, making all global finals (4) and broke 1.43 in the Olympic final. That being said, He doesn't quite have the same resume of the remaining crew.

Brazier has a world title and the AR. He might be the best 800m runner the US ever produced (those two accolades back that up) but he's made ONE US team and might only ever make ONE US team. You can't be the GOAT with an elite pro career that spans 3 years.

Dave Wottle has arguably the most inspiring and exciting 800m win in history in the Olympic 800m in Munich. He ran 1.44.3 to win the trials in 1972 which like Ryun, equalled the WR at the time (sidenote: was this time never ratified/official - it is not included on the alltime list of US mens 800m performances? WA website says the time was "*not legal". Now back in this era there was not the same opportunities for competition (no world champs etc) but even so, the period of dominance/relevance just isn't there. I know the Olympic title is the ultimate but his current best "legal" time is 103rd on the alltime US list. The 3 spot is still a great spot to occupy but he's not the greatest.

So it's Whitfield vs Gray and it's a coin flip. Whitfield went B2B in London and Helsinki, ran 1.47.9 in 1953. He never set the 800m WR but set the 880y in 1.48.6

Gray made 4 Olympic finals in the modern era - when the WR was under 1.42 (Coe). It had never been done before and has never been done since. He went 7-5-3-7 in those finals which is incredible. He has a 6th place in a world final, ran 1.42.60 back in 1985 - a time only beaten by one American since. Somebody pointed out that it's unfair to use longevity as a metric because prior to the 70's professional track wasn't really a thing and that is a fair point - but at the same time when it did become professional the level and depth of performances increased exponentially. Gray was extremely relevant across multiple eras from the Coe era of the 80's through into the Kipketer era of the 90's. The volume of elite running he did is mind blowing

Thread:www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?th...

and another fun fact - in the 26 times he broke 1.44.0 he never finished outside the top 3 which means he wasn't just along for the ride and benefiting off mega-fast races - he was making them.

I'm fine to say Gray 1A, Whitfield 1B or even reverse the order - but this is still an opinion thread and I like Gray as your GOAT by a fraction - and I also backed up why which is all we can ask for I guess.

All good arguments but unfair to Ryun. He equalled a great world record for the 800 (Snell's) in his era. 1.44-low in '66 is easily worth 1.42-flat in the mid-80's. It was a good twenty years before Gray and the modern tracks he ran on, plus Gray was pulled along for the ride by better runners. He only placed at his best - he didn't win. Sure, Ryun focused on the 1500/mile but I think he showed that at his best over the 800 he was better than Gray. Longevity isn't the decisive criterion. Elliott had a career of only 3 years.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

You may have a point with Kipketer, although stating he would have won in 96 is conjecture, as Coe was even more of a favourite in 1980 and didn't win! Also have to remember that World titles were run every 2 years and were available for Kipketer throughout his career (at least 6 opportunities between '93 and '03), something which wasn't the case for Coe, who had just 2 chances, 4 years apart and during the 2nd half of his career. It should also be noted that Coe lowered the WR in 2 instalments, by 1.71 secs (a greater margin of dominance than anyone (including Harbig) in the modern era. Running some 16 years later on faster tracks and with some improvements in shoes, Kipketer only managed to lower Coe's mark by 0.62 in 3 goes. I also take issue with your claim that Coe wasn't as dominant as Kipketer. From the Europeans in 78 until the Europeans in 82, that is 4 seasons, Coe was only beaten over 800m (in fact any distance) twice. There isn't much between them in terms of longevity and ranking points (Kipketer has a slight edge), but in terms of the competitions available to both (the Olympics and Europeans), Coe has a better record, and obviously in terms of impact. Kipketer does have a very good resume and there are valid arguments for both

I do strongly disagree that Cruz and Juantorena be ranked ahead of Coe, however. Cruz had 2 great seasons; yes he won the Olympic title in a WR, but lowered the WR by just 0.26secs, which is significantly inferior to Coe's improvement of 1.71 secs. Juantorena won the World Cup in 77, the nearest he had to a world title.

However, Coe had 12 seasons at the very top, 13 if you include his European Indoor gold in 77. He had a more convincing World Cup win than Juantorena's, and while not winning an Olympic gold, I would argue that 2 consecutive silvers is about as close as you get to matching it. At almost 33, at the very end of his career, Coe was still the 2nd fastest man in the world in '89, with 1:43.38, faster than Cruz's pb at his peak.

I would put Cruz above Juantorena due to him having a 2nd Olympic medal (silver from '88). And although Cruz had 4 good seasons at the top (spanning 83 -88), he just hasn't got the longevity or the ranking points to match Coe, let alone the lack of any world records. Coe broke 2 outdoor WRs, 2 indoor WRs and was part of the 4 x 800m relay that held the WR for something like 20 years. Yes, Cruz's 1G and 1S at the Olympics is better than Coe's 2S, but people forget Coe also won golds in the World Cup, European Champs and the European indoor (in the 2nd fastest time ever).

Your arguments about Coe above Cruz and maybe even Kipketer are persuasive - and extremely well-informed, as one would expect.

On a small point of detail, you mention that Coe improving the 800m wr by 1.7 seconds is unmatched in the modern era, my understanding is that Snell did that earlier - and in one race! - in 1962, when he lowered the record for the half mile along with the 800m record.

Deanouk wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

It was Lydiard who claimed Snell's record could be up to 2 seconds faster on modern tracks. It is notable than no top level races are on grass today. Other estimates have suggested up to 1.5 secs, which would give Snell 1:42-high. Certainly, modern shoes would also be a factor, so 2 seconds is not outlandish.

David Epstein asked biomechanics to analyse the difference between dirt/cinders and a synthetic track (those of 2019, which I would consider are faster than synthetic from the 70's), and he said that their consensus was that a well maintained dirt track reduced energy return by c. 1.5%, which in a 1:44 800m equates to about 0.75 secs per lap, or 1.5secs for an 800m. However, it should be noted that Snell himself is on record as stating that a grass track was faster than any dirt track. He said this in an interview after the WR. With this in mind, I would suggest that a well kept grass track would only slow Snell down by more like 0.5 secs per lap, or 1.0 secs in total. His 1:44.3 (HT) on grass is more likely worth 1:43.3 - 1:43.5 for 800m on 1970's synthetic, making his run superior to Juantorena's and Fiasconaro's WRs that came after him. I don't think it converts to a 1:42, unless you're converting it to a top track from today and super shoes, but then you have to adjust everyone else accordingly. Clearly Snell was ahead of his time and would be one of the favourites for global titles even amongst today's elites.

Deanouk wrote:

And Kipketer just ran 800m, whereas Coe was also breaking WRs at 1000m, 1500m and 1 mile. Kipketer is also given great recognition for running so many fast times; well, that is partially due to a completely different circuit/scene he ran in compared to Coe's, but mainly because he spent 3 seasons attempting to break Coe's WR on many occasions before finally managing it in 97. Same for Rudisha, when chasing Kipketer's WR 12 years later. There was never that incentive for Coe, having broken the WR for the 1st time by over a second in 79. By 81 he was 1.71secs faster than the next fastest in history, so what was the point of him continuing to go out and run super fast times when he was significantly ahead of the rest!? I have no doubt had Coe needed to in 81, he could have run faster still. When you consider the improvements in tracks and shoes between 81 and 97, and again between 97 and 2012, there is really nothing in it in terms of their best times. Put each on today's tracks and with light pacing, all 3 would all be running 1:40 low/mid.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

And Kipketer just ran 800m, whereas Coe was also breaking WRs at 1000m, 1500m and 1 mile. Kipketer is also given great recognition for running so many fast times; well, that is partially due to a completely different circuit/scene he ran in compared to Coe's, but mainly because he spent 3 seasons attempting to break Coe's WR on many occasions before finally managing it in 97. Same for Rudisha, when chasing Kipketer's WR 12 years later. There was never that incentive for Coe, having broken the WR for the 1st time by over a second in 79. By 81 he was 1.71secs faster than the next fastest in history, so what was the point of him continuing to go out and run super fast times when he was significantly ahead of the rest!? I have no doubt had Coe needed to in 81, he could have run faster still. When you consider the improvements in tracks and shoes between 81 and 97, and again between 97 and 2012, there is really nothing in it in terms of their best times. Put each on today's tracks and with light pacing, all 3 would all be running 1:40 low/mid.

I think Coe deserves a ton of credit for taking the 800 to the next level. Kipketer obviously took it a bit further down, and it has only marginally moved from there. It's gone backward in recent years outside of flashes of brilliance from Korir and Brazier and now two strong top 2 guys in Wanyonyi and Arop. Greatness in the 800 is a nuanced discussion, as Coe deserves huge credit for getting the record as far down as he did. The knock on him will always be his championship performances in the 800. There is no doubt that in the Rushmore of him, Kipketer, Rudisha and Snell his silver medals (as a favorite) sting. I *still* narrowly give him the 3rd spot over Kipketer, even though it is probably unfair. I'd say the 2000 Olympics defeat was close enough with Coe's 1980 defeat (granted Kipketer was not at the peak of his powers by 2000), but he still should've won). The unfair part is in 1996, where it is hard to envision Kipketer losing. So I wouldn't say anyone who puts Kipketer over Coe is wrong at all. As far as Middle Distance Running, I think that is the move because that then adds in Coe's accomplishments from 1,000 to mile.