Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

The farthest thing from it. The propensity for people, especially on this board, to indict every African runner who runs fast as a "druggie" is among the more ignorant, foolish things one could do.

I do not at all lean towards the "Kenyans are dirty" theory.

I gave an example of him lying. As for the cycling allegations, that is stuff you can research. There are many allegations against him and evidence of him exiting cycling with a suddenness that defies "coincidence."

As I said as well, because performance skyrocketed does not mean they were not clean. But it is another strike against Rosa, who already has at least 2 against him.

No.

Again, no.

Look, there are top athletes who are cheating.

Ali Said-Sief, Mohammed Mourhit, Brahim Boulami, Alene Amere, Joyce Chepchumba, Cathal Lombard, and Regina Jacobs are some of the distance runners that come to mind.

These people evaded testing for YEARS before being caught, and some only when tests for new drugs became available.

Others have had run-ins with testing. Komen tested positive for caffeine, but it was determined that his was a genetic anomaly.

I do not say that ANY of those people you mentioned are dirty.

I have seen and read all about Bekele, El Guerrouj, Tergat, Gebrselassie, Shaheen, etc. and their training and lifestyle. If it is possible, they are the ones to do it.

But you must admit that they have put things beyond the realm of possibility for non-Africans, and if you read Rojo's article (http://www.letsrun.com/rojospeaksmay23.html)

the evidence points to drug use in SOME capacity.

Actually, ther very best do NOT benefit from drugs.

The ones who benefit from drugs are the 2nd tier athletes. The best example of this is Cathal Lombard who "broke through" to 27:32 after using EPO, or Boulami who ran "7:53" and was drugged to the gills.

In short, I sincerely hope that the best people are not on drugs, but we may never know. I have no ability to say yes or no, but until they are caught, they are innocent.

Agreed. Remember, though, that non-African women are much more up there with people like Radcliffe, etc. who are BETTER than any African.

Sonia O'Sullivan used to be among them and Kim Smith is also very good, as well as Benita Johnson.

Renato, your explanation is good, but the above I cannot imagine.

Speaking in absolute terms, the world records are mind boggling. On this board there are many serious runners from all over the world who have trained 1,000's of miles and have talent, and even among this huge pool of athletes, the times are incredible:

800- 1:41.11, Wilson Kipketer, 50.55 seconds per lap

1,500- 3:26.00, Hicham El Guerrouj, 54.93 seconds per lap

Mile- 3:43.13, Hicham El Guerrouj, 55.78 seconds per 440 yards

3,000- 7:20.67, Daniel Komen, 58.76 seconds per lap

2 miles- 7:58.61, Daniel Komen, 59.83 seconds per 440 yards

5,000m- 12:37.35, Kenenisa Bekele, 60.59 per lap, 4:03.77 per mile

10,000m- 26:20.31, Kenenisa Bekele, 63.21 per lap, 4:14.33 per mile

15K- 41:29, Felix Limo, 4:27 per mile

20K- 56:18, Paul Tergat (split to half marathon), 4:31.81 per mile

Half Marathon- 59:06, Paul Tergat (also ran 58:51 on course 49m short, and 59:17 on allowable elevation drop), 4:30.49 per mile

25K- 1:12:45, Paul Kosgei, 4:40.99 per mile

Marathon- 2:04:55, Paul Tergat, 4:45.86 per mile

Looking, for instance, at the records 3K-5K, we are talking 4:00 MILE PACE OR FASTER for SEVERAL MILES!

It was only a short time ago, relatively speaking (1954), that Bannister ran 3:59.4 for the first time EVER.

And now, people are running 4:03 per mile for OVER THREE MILES.

I cannot comprehend how this can be considered "soft."

Even if people can improve these records, that does not mean they are "weak." Bekele, Shaheen, El Guerrouj, etc. are suffering when they get these. World records are once or twice in a lifetime performances (or, rarely, as in Gebrselassie's case, 17 times in a lifetime). As an example, I have watched El Guerrouj declare a "world record attempt" almost every time he has ever raced a 1500m or a mile in the last 4-5 years. There are many 3:28's, 3:29's, and great wins and performances.

But 3:26.00? He ran that in 1998, and he never again beat it. So if El Guerrouj's performance is "weak" what is strong?

In the marathon, Tergat runs 4:45 per mile for 26.2 miles. Simply, that is incredible.

And I must guess you are speaking more specifically about the 10,000m.

Again, in absolute terms, this is 2 5,000m's, without stopping, in 13:10.15 apiece. There are even Kenyans and Ethiopians who cannot run that fast FOR ONE 5,000 METERS.

To do it for two is mind boggingly, not weak.

That would be very interesting to see Hassan's programs.

I am sorry to hear that you were robbed. Did the airport attempt to help you retrieve the stolen bag?

Just to give an idea of how things work in Kenya – I spent 6 months living there in 1995. First with Kip Keino, then with Bro Colm at St Patricks and then in Nyahurhur (excuse the spelling) training with Kiptanui, Komen, Ngeng, etc (KIM Group).

Spent about 3 months living in a room out the back of Bro Colm’s house. In the next room was Benson Koech (1.43 800, WJR), and next to him were Rose Cheroyt and Sally Barsosio (again excuse the spelling of names). This was when Rose was cleaning up in XC and road races (think she may have medalled WCC??). Their rooms consisted of a bed, table and a few draws for clothes, no fridge to keep a “drug regime” in. I spent quite some time with them – never even coming into my mind doping.

Moved on to train with the KIM group, and stayed in the same hotel as these guys (Kiptanui, Komen, Ngeng, David & Robert Kibet and a few others). This was in May/June 1995, with their final prep for the 12.55 5K (then WR Kiptanui) and then preparing for Kenyan Trials. Again the set up was very basic, what westerners would consider 2-3 start hotel – no fridge (and maybe I’m mistaken but I guess you need to keep EPO refrigerated??). The most high tech instrument was a set of scales. I spent a lot of time in Kiptanui’s and the coach’s room and saw nothing at all fishy.

So although this was almost 10 years ago, race times have not greatly improved, so I doubt there is a doping conspiracy happening in Kenya. I guess for all the doubters, go see for yourself, they are most welcoming of foreign athletes!

Any insight to the KIM training program? I know theres been some stuff posted on here before but can you provide some more info from your experiences with the group?

ramblin' man

ramblin' man

i thought you had stopped

but you're at it again

observer of taking up space wrote:

ramblin' man

ramblin' man

i thought you had stopped

but you're at it again

This is funny. I have not yet seen "observer"'s contribution to this thread. So far he has been intent on counting words that racer1 writes. Ironically, cabral, canova, and tinman also write long training analysis, but "observer" doesn't count their words. I am watching you observer. I motion that you find another thread and count words there. We don't have time for your childlike games. Most people stop counting words in kindergarten. You're not there yet, and so, not suited for a thread of this magnitude and level. Of course, you could redeem yourself by discussing the relative merits of hypoxic training to the myoglobin reserves. Then we'd listen.

Iam under the impression that IF, kenya were to become more organized in their athletics program.

they will be unstopable.

i dont even think ethiopia will be able to challenge them.

But that is a huge IF, as it is right now, they seem a long way from organized.

Renato,

Regarding Shaheen and his records, do you think it is possible for him to dip below 7:45 for 3KM S/C and do you think it is possible for him to maybe one day break world record in 5KM?

I can see you are replying to me, so I hope you are not thinking that I am a proponent of the "Kenyans are dirty" theory.

I am not.

Also, I would be interested in hearing specifics of your stay like the other poster.

Racer1 wrote:Even if people can improve these records, that does not mean they are "weak." Bekele, Shaheen, El Guerrouj, etc. are suffering when they get these. World records are once or twice in a lifetime performances (or, rarely, as in Gebrselassie's case, 17 times in a lifetime). As an example, I have watched El Guerrouj declare a "world record attempt" almost every time he has ever raced a 1500m or a mile in the last 4-5 years. There are many 3:28's, 3:29's, and great wins and performances.

But 3:26.00? He ran that in 1998, and he never again beat it. So if El Guerrouj's performance is "weak" what is strong?

I have to agree with Renato. The 5k and 10k times are weak. Let's not get caught up in numbers, because let's face it, running 3.1 miles at 4:03 pace is daunting. Instead, examine the strength of the current world records based upon whether or not the individual could have had a better race. You are right about El Guerrouj's 3:26, that I think will be around for a while now that he is done with the 1500. However, I think that the 5/10 are both weak. Kenenisa Bekele ran the bulk of one of those all by himself, and a significant portion of the other. I can't remember which was which. Assuming he had a rival in the way Geb had Komen when he ran 12:41, he could've pushed the pedal significantly. Tergat's 2:04:55 seems fairly strong in that regard, and the weather/course was also perfect that day.

It's ironic how the 5k/10k, perhaps the most raced of distances, remain the weakest.

Broadview Joe wrote:

It's ironic how the 5k/10k, perhaps the most raced of distances, remain the weakest.

But the 10K is only raced once on the Golden League, in Brussels. Jos Hermens got them to do it at Hengelo too since the emergence of Gebrselassie, but that's just 2x season. The 5K is raced more so, but competition does not necessarily mean the athlete will go faster. Gebrselassie ran faster without any competition, and he probably could have gone better because he had to run his last mile in 3:59 when the pacemakers screwed it up for him.

With Kipchoge, Bekele, Shaheen, Sihine, and El Guerrouj, the 5K could come down, but the 10K is an unbelievable record. It even humbled Bekele; he could "only" run 58 for the last lap, and that's a guy who finished off a 27:05 at the Olympics in 53.02.

that 53.02 last lap really put into perspective, just how unbeatable that kid is.

it didnt even look like he was kicking hard.

just running faster somehow.

Just pulled out the diary from back then – here are a few notes:

Rest from end Sept – end Nov (I know Kenyans are resting a little less now), but you also have to remember they always have such a strong basic fitness.

Dec – 2 weeks of easy long running, twice daily.

Then starts the 3 times a day cycle Mon – Fri, with Sat long run and Sun rest:

6 AM – tempo run, starts super easy, talking 6 min /km for about 10 minutes, then gradually winds up. I felt I was racing by the end. They do it in full track suits, beanies, gloves and its not that cold! They either do 20 min, rest a bit and 20min again or 40min + straight at a slightly lesser intensity or 20min build up, rest then 10 x 1min fartlek on the way back. At one stage the Army team was also training at Nyahurhu and training runs would start with 40 + people. I was one of 3 white folk, and when I would run by myself, people on their way to work (in suits) would join me.

10AM – Intervals, track, hills, sprints – more details to follow.

4PM – 30 – 40 min easy jog, get the crap out of the legs

Moses would start the year at doing 5 x 1000m about 2.45 pace (on dirt 6500ft) and gradually build the pace. Also would include a few local XC races.

Feb – Indoor racing, followed by 3 weeks rest.

April/May – major track prep (3 trainings a day as above)

June – Sept race in Europe, with 1 or 2 trips back to Kenya for training.

Specifics – from my diary – 8000 feet above sea level, dirt track (and not a good one)

The 8/15 and 15/5K type train together most of the time.

27/4 WO1: 8km steady/8km Fartlek (1min surges)

28/4 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 12 x 100m sprints, 100 jog rec – the track was being used for some political rally (even Kiptanui doesn’t always get to use the track!)

WO3: 4 x 600m, 3 Rec (1.28 – 1.30) – 5 Rest – 4 x 400m, 1 Rec (56 – 58)

29/4 WO1: 22km run

30/4 WO1: 8km easy

1/5 WO1 60min build up

WO2: 3(4x400m, 1 rec) – 5 between sets (59 – 61) – muddy track

WO3: 40 min easy

2/5 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 12 x 130m very steep hill sprints, jog back rec.

WO3: 40 min easy

3/5 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 3(4x400m, 1 rec) – 5 between sets (57 – 60) 15/5k type

2(5 x 200m, 200 jog rec) – 5 between sets (24/25) 8/15 type.

WO3: 40 min easy

This next bit is after Kiptanui/Komen’s 5km (think in Rome – 12.55, then WR)

Less intense as freshening up for Nationals.

15/6 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 4 x 600m, 3 Rec (1.28 – 1.30) – 5 Rest – 4 x 400m, 1 Rec (58 - 60)

WO3: 40 min easy

16/6 WO1: 120min of running including 5 x 4min steep hill climbs

WO2: 40 min easy

17/6 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 12 x 400m, 1.30 rec (58 - 61)

WO3: 40 min easy

18/6 WO1: 60min easy

WO2: 40 min easy

19/6 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 2 x 1200, 10 min rec (3.06 – 3.09) 4 x 600m, 200 walk rec (1.30) - 5k type

Or

1 x 1200m (3.00) 10 rec 1 x 300 fast (36) - 8/15 type.

WO3: 40 min easy

20/6 WO1: 60min easy

WO2: 40 min easy

21/6 WO1: 9km tempo

WO2: 5 x 400m, 3 rec (57-58) 5 min rest, 5 x 200m, 200 jog (26) - 5k type

Or

10 x 200m, 200 jog (24/25) 5 min rest, 2 x 400m (53-55) 1 min rec.8/15 type.

WO3: 40 min easy

22/6 WO1: 40min easy

WO2: 40 min easy

23/6 Final track workout

8/15 type – 2 x 600m, 10 min rec (1.27), 2 x 200m, 200 jog (23), 6 x 100m, 100jog (fast)

26/6 Trails begin: Results from group

800m – J Tengelei 1st

D Kiptoo 8th

1500m – E Maru 4th

Steeple – Kiptanui 1st

5000m – Komen 4th.

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Osto, that is great stuff. Thanks for sharing the info.

I am surprised at the speed of some of that short stuff. I did not think Komen would be capable of turning out 23 second 200's and 36 second 300's so easily. He never seemed to possess the same type of natural speed as Gebrselassie or even Tergat, but I suppose this is belied by his 3:29.46 and 3:46.38. You'd need at least 1:44-1:45 speed with those times.

Out of curiosity, how were you able to train with these guys? Did you just show up or did you pre-arrange this? You obviously must be very good in your own regard to hang with these class of Kenyans in training.

Madein_82 wrote:

Iam under the impression that IF, kenya were to become more organized in their athletics program.

they will be unstopable.

i dont even think ethiopia will be able to challenge them.

But that is a huge IF, as it is right now, they seem a long way from organized.

Madein82:

How so? Kenya for many years was at the forefront. Organized camps, insistence on having top athletes leave their coaches in the pivotal few weeks right before major championships, etc.

The Ethiopians who make it to the top are better than the Kenyans. Gebrselassie, Bekele, Abera, Bayissa, Bikila (Abebe and Worku), Wolde (Mamo and Million), Mezgebu, Dinkessa, Gebremariam, Tola, Jifar, Dibaba (Tirunesh and Ejegayehu), Wami, Adere, Tulu, Sihine....you get the point.

Perhaps the altitude is a little better, or the training more systematic, or the national and cultural motivations stronger, but you must admit this is a new era over the past few years.

I agree with Renato about the records being soft still. I had to train and work full time and I was sure that if I could get a protracted spell at altitude without work I could run hugely faster. Three times a day regularly was always a dream but when I did try that I was put under huge pressure by coaches, colleagues and family that I was "wrong" and would do irreparable damage to myself. I was even criticised for many years for doing weights. Times will be faster now because the african culture has allowed them to train properly without these mental restictions. But having seen the succesful cross country skiers (who are european), even some of the africans have a way to go in some areas of training.

There is no reason why western athletes should not do the same. The main need is to break through the inhibiting cultural rules and also to stop thinking that others are doing something illegal. Surely some are, but many are not. Thinking others cheat weakens the mind, and by association, the training. The key is more running and more clever training, not just the same work but harder.

Very sound observations from Glen Grant and 'Osto'.

Whenever I have trained in Kenya and lived the Kenyan lifestyle I have been able to train much harder (and recover) than I can living my western lifestyle.

The reported Tergat session at 6000ft in St Moritz is believable to me. I have seen that session run at 57 secs on a rutted dirt track at 8000ft in Kenya by a lesser athlete than Paul. And it blew my mind.

I know a lot of you guys dont believe Renato. And I can see why. Italian cylcing doesn't have a great reputation, sudden improvements in his athletes can look suspect.

And I wouldnt have believed that you could run 26:30 clean until I lived in East Africa. Having lived in Kenya I am convinced.

I'm not so sure that the 10k is going to go 30sec quicker in the next couple of years and i am convinced that the mens marathon WR is going to get anhiliated soon.

Until you actually live with these guys it is impossible to comprehend what it possible with total focus.

I think of it like flight:

The Wright brothers first fly in 1903

Chuck Yeager goes supersonic in '47

And 22 years later Armstrong is on the moon.

Talent, understanding and motivation. We can achieve incredible things when we put our minds to it.