RE: Cheating at Marathons

phredryka wrote:

Its been so long I had to go back and look at what the specifics of the Badwater 135 cheating were. The discussion starts on page 12, and continues through 17 and onwards, with some Option 1, Distract, thrown in. i am pasting a few of the key points below to save time for others new to this thread. its easier than trying to summarize, though if someone else wants to, that would be awesome! Where is SOLKR when we need him?

Where there's smoke...

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/1/2014 11:34PM - in reply to Where there's smoke...

I honestly have no idea what the truth is here but there does seem to be an awful lot of circumstantial evidence. Just looking at the splits from this year's Badwater, PM is one of only two runners to run faster on the second half of the course. The first finished 7th overall and was 18 mins faster on the back half. PM, on the other hand, supposedly ran over an hour faster on the second half. On a course as long and difficult as Badwater, I just don't buy it. I find it much easier to believe that she somehow cheated.

hills slow you down

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/2/2014 5:29AM - in reply to elephino

those splits seem wacky when overlayed w course elevation profile

http://www.badwater.com/route/2014/Badwater135_2014_profile.jpg

Darren Fortney (#18/Badwater)

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/4/2014 2:23PM - in reply to sleepy?

I was asked to comment on this discussion. I am putting everything out publicly. I am not about to hide behind one thing I am about to disclose. There is a bunch of theories about what happened at Badwater put out there by people who were not there. Well, I was.

First of all, I do not know PM. I don't care about her records or business. I have nothing to gain or lose in this discussion. I am not a pro athlete. I am hold a regular job and am a Dad. I like to run ultra's but this is my hobby, not my career. I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don't have sponsors. I am not out to get anyone.

I live in WI with my family. I am a 4x Badwater finisher. I ran Badwater last month/2014. I am going to throw out a few facts about Badwater 2014 because there have been a few folks bringing it up and I feel uniquely qualified to talk about FACTS because I was there. Badwater 1014. I was in front of PM for the ENTIRE race with the exception of the first hour that it took me to catch her between her 6 am start and my 7 am start.

Yes, I will bring up FACTS. Nothing more. Nothing less. First PM was behind me approximately 2 hour and 12 min hours at the turnaround at Darwin (91 mile mark). At this point, I was 1 hour ahead of PM based on my later starting time and 1:12 physically in front of her. Again, 2 hours and 12 min ahead of her (2:12). I finished the race from 91 to 135 without napping, sleeping, or other off course breaks. I was on the road the entire time. AT NO TIME DID PM EVER PASS ME from mile 91 to the finish, yet she somehow finished an hour in front of me!???!! I also have a crew of 3 other individuals from mile 91-122 and a 4 person crew from miles 122-135. Nobody on my crew saw one trace of her on the course after we passed her at the Darwin turnaround (we were heading home from Darwin, she was still climbing to Darwin). I was near the back of the pack this year due to being sick. She was behind me. We physically saw her behind us on the out and back. On a long straight desert road, you absolutely know 100% when someone approaches you....especially at Badwater where the runners talk and encourage each other as they pass each other. First you see the crew vehicle leep frog you (that is the first sign a runner is approaching you from behind....you see their vehicle first), then you see the runner, then the runners engage with each other as they pass, then you see the runner disappear in front of you. The process at this stage in the race typically takes approximately 30 min, depending the speed differential of the runners. I was moving well at that point. Between myself and my 3-4 crew members that were with me the ENTIRE time, we can all attest to the fact that PM 100% DID NOT PASS US AT ANY POINT IN THE RACE......especially in the back 44 miles of the course. These are FACTS. Something is definitely NOT RIGHT about this entire scene. I DO NOT care for people disrespecting any race.....be it Badwater or the local 10K race. Have a good day.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5882052&page=11#ixzz3CR0PHk6zDarren

Fortney #18/Badwater

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/4/2014 5:24PM - in reply to runnsczz

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I asked PM directly how she finished in front of me when she never passed me. She had no response or explanation. When asked where and when she passed me between miles 91-122 (she somehow got to lone pine in front of me), once again no explanation. I can tell you each and every runner who was in front and behind me (+- 10 each way)when and where I passed them or when they passed me. At Badwater you know. It's a flat road in the desert. The back end of the race is deserted. When we see teams and runners, we interact. Runners bond at the passing points. We encourage and support each other. We ask if they need help. Badwater us a bonding event. We are not competing against each other.... But against ourselves and the conditions. Our teams interact with each other. Obviously this was void with PM and her team because they did NIT pass us. It's not just me. My entire crew was there too. We would have seen her and her team on the race course. Nobody slips by you.

Yes, the race director Chris Kostman is aware of this information. I will respectfully leave it in hands what to do with it. I have zero stake in this game. I am just a guy who likes to run.....and run honestly. I didn't even know who this woman was until a few weeks ago.

split rankings that sink in

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/8/2014 12:22PM - in reply to Verrrrrry Interesting

You can do all the math you want. You can look at splits and speed differentials and all types of things. The bottomline is this: it is all relative to the course, the distance and your racing peers. So here are some facts. I have not yet completed some of the middle splits yet but I will. Out of the 87 finishers, let's look at ranking v. PM's peers and see if anyone really doubts that she cheated:

Split 1/Mile 23: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 2/Mile 45: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 3/Mile 59: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 4/Mile 67: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Final 2 Splits Combined/Mile 122-135 (finish) PM suddenly ranked 33/87 up the final 13 miles of the course.....the course hallmark toughest climb. WTF???!?!? Really?!?!?

So, her final split 122-135 she beat out the following over all finishers times: 12th place fiisher/time of 30:29, 14th place finisher/time of 30:38, 21st place finisher/time 33:07, 24th place finisher/time 34:20, 25th place finisher/time34:21. These are some of the best of the best in the world people. She goes from slower in the race for half of it to somehow going 33/87 in the final 13 miles? If her finisher peer group, she was faster than the 13 finishers in front of her and all of the runners behind her. In otherwords, of the final 13 finishers, she had the fastest final split from 122-135. Really?!?!? And there are numerous people that also "never saw her on the course or pass them". This all adds up to one word: CHEATER!!!!!

Do you really believe she did not cheat? Of course she CHEATED!!!! She is not even fit people!!! Why is this so hard to believe that she cheated?!?!? She is a 6-7 hour marathoner.....she is not about to throw down splits like that after being the races ass for so long.

split rankings that sink in

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/8/2014 12:29PM - in reply to split rankings that sink in

Slight correction. She was the fastest split for miles 122-135/finish of the final 19 official race finishers (13 in front of her and 6 behind her). Wow.....really? Again, have you physically seen her? World's Greatest Cheater. LOSER!

thomas

RE: Cheating at Marathons 8/8/2014 4:53PM - in reply to verrrrrry interesting

Hi everyone. 1st time on this site. Darren had directed me to this forum. Btw, I was bib#42 at BW. First off, I have nothing to gain but only acting on a question from a very respectable ultra runner's question, "What would you do if you knew someone cheated in a race?"

Here's what I saw. PM caught up to me at the summit of Cerro Gordo then again at the base, Keeler. From Keeler, she went ahead of me and I didn't see her until I was about a mile away to the turnaround (Darwin) and she was on her way back to lone pine. It was about a few miles passed the 100mi marker that I saw her and the pacer making their way to their crew vehicle and stopping. Also, please keep in mind it's a descent from the darwin so I started running with some short walks in between. Eventually, we passed her and her team. We then stopped a mile ahead for a few mins. At that point, we never saw her or her crew pass us. As i continued on, I saw her crew vehicle zoom right by us. I looked back and no signs of PM. After that, the team and I never saw her again.

this is whats wrong wrote:

Along with multiple eyewitness accounts of her disappearing after mi 91 at bad water... there's this math stuff someone did. So no one could see her, and she suddenly got way faster.

Cheaters never win, but they sure are less sore than their fellow competitors.

phredryka wrote:

split rankings that sink in

Split 1/Mile 23: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 2/Mile 45: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 3/Mile 59: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 4/Mile 67: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Final 2 Splits Combined/Mile 122-135 (finish) PM suddenly ranked 33/87 up the final 13 miles of the course.....the course hallmark toughest climb. WTF???!?!? Really?!?!?

So, her final split 122-135 she beat out the following over all finishers times: 12th place fiisher/time of 30:29, 14th place finisher/time of 30:38, 21st place finisher/time 33:07, 24th place finisher/time 34:20, 25th place finisher/time34:21. These are some of the best of the best in the world people.

this is whats wrong wrote:

Along with multiple eyewitness accounts of her disappearing after mi 91 at bad water... there's this math stuff someone did. So no one could see her, and she suddenly got way faster.

Cheaters never win, but they sure are less sore than their fellow competitors.

phredryka wrote:

split rankings that sink in

Split 1/Mile 23: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 2/Mile 45: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 3/Mile 59: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Split 4/Mile 67: PM ranked 87/87 slowest of all finishers

Final 2 Splits Combined/Mile 122-135 (finish) PM suddenly ranked 33/87 up the final 13 miles of the course.....the course hallmark toughest climb. WTF???!?!? Really?!?!?

So, her final split 122-135 she beat out the following over all finishers times: 12th place fiisher/time of 30:29, 14th place finisher/time of 30:38, 21st place finisher/time 33:07, 24th place finisher/time 34:20, 25th place finisher/time34:21. These are some of the best of the best in the world people.

Not Drinking the Kool Aid wrote:

Hundo wrote:

crap coming out of your mouth wrote:

Why is she posting 6-7 hour marathon times a few months later? PM is a walker.

Any time you want to demonstrate PM "moving" faster than a snails pace, please let us know so we can officially keep any eye on her. 4:30 marathoner? I don't think so. Perhaps we can dig into Houston and find massive cheating there too. Why would we not find more cheating there?People's marathon times don't vary by hours in a matter of months.

Oh, by the way, an ultra-runners 100 mile pace v. a marathon pace typically varies by well over 3 min per mile. Steve, you have zero idea what they heck you are talking about. So, how about you figure out what the hell YOU are talking about before opening you couch-bound mouth.

Here is some math based on some recent data from one of her own crew members (Daniel Santos-Costa) who actually does look like he is a runner, both marathons and ultras.

From Athlinks.

3:30 marathon/8:00 min miles (numerous 3:30 marathons the past few years)

25 hour 100-mile (recent PM race)/15:00 min miles

24 hour 100-mile (Keys 100)/14:24 min miles

These times and paces are typical for what the is known and acceptable.

Difference is 6-7 min per mile. This is based on real data. Yes, a real runner, that runs both competitive marathons and 100 mile ultras. Not some made up name, but some guy that appears to be in her inner circles. His numbers fit with what most of us know about the pace differential.

So, don't give me this crap about PM being in the acceptable range of 3 min per mile between her marathon and 100 mile paces. That is complete crap coming out of your mouth.

Not only that, but leading up to her unbelievable weekend of:

5/3/13AM marathon 5:00:00 (great perfect even time)

5/3/13PM marathon 5:45:00 (great perfect even time)

5/4/13 100 MILER 23:00 (great perfect even time)

5/5/13 marathon 7:00:00 (great perfect even time)

she was running marathons/ultras (two a day some weekends***) for weeks/months either side of this magnificent weekend (see athlinks link below).

So this would make Steve's assertion regarding acceptable differentials between marathon and hundo even more unbelievable considering lack of taper/recovery before and after, in fact totally unbelievable.

*** I particularly liked these leading up to the Hundo:

Same day:

I Ran Marathons Double Devil 6666 Harker 4/20/2013 5:15:00

I Ran Marathons TGIF April Double 4/20/2013 5:15:00

And the Quad weekend (note the 50miler), she got quicker as it went on, amazing:

I Ran Marathons Good Friday 3/29/2013 6:45:00

I Ran Marathons Anniversary Quad Day 2 (50 Mile) 3/30/2013 9:55:00

I Ran Marathons Anniversary Quad Day 3 3/31/2013 4:45:00

I Ran Marathons Anniversary Quad Day 4 4/1/2013 4:31:00

https://www.athlinks.com/athletes/44447537/Profile