Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Trackhead,

I'm a friend of LaWoof. e-mail me with your e-mail. I have a position you may be interested in. Full disclosure of the position will require a confidentiality aggreement, but with you business studies and passion for running, you may just fit the bill.

Renato I have a question for you as this seems to be something of a Q&A here.

I read recently the book about Haile Gebrselassie "The Greatest." Especially interesting was the talk about his comeback from surgery after Sydney, and after losing many races in 2003 over 5,000 and 10,000, he had a good race at Brussels winning with 26:29.22. What surprised me is that the man behind him ran 26:30, yet earlier in the year, in the same race Gebrselassie ran 26:54 and lost to Bekele, had run 28:19.

I saw that it was your runner Kemboi. For Gebrselassie I can see a reasonable improvement, from 26:54 in hot weather falling off WR pace to 26:29, when he has already in the past run 26:22. Kemboi's run, though, is remarkable. He went from 28:19 to 26:30, a 99 second improvement in a 6.2 mile race. A 28:19 is already a world class time, too. For comparison, this like a miler shaving 16 seconds (99/6.2) from his time after already being world class (say 4:00 for the mile) and going to 3:44, one of the best ever. Kemboi's time is #5 ever, and 3:44 would be #3 or 4 ever. If a 4:00 miler ran, two months after running 4:00, a 3:44, this would be sensation. Kemboi did not seem to draw so much attention because the 10K is not so high profile.

Still, my question is, how this is improvement possible? I am sure, from reading hundreds of articles of people who lived and trained in Kenya, that the Kenyans are honest and work hard without abusing enhancement substances, so there can be no talk of drugs. But training for just 2 months and going from 28:19 to 26:30 seems unexplainable. I have never even heard of slower runners doing this, and a slower 10K runner, for example someone running 40:00, has much, much more time to take off his PR than someone running 28:00. Many top athletes running 28:00-30:00 with talent train hard for more than 2 months and do not shave 99 seconds from their time.

What do you attribute this to?

some answers from RC about Kemboi:

"Regarding Nicholas, his basic work was based on long run till 1 hr 30:00 and short sprint climbing. During that period Nicholas ran 2 HM, the first one in 62:07 in february or beginning of march, the second in Lisbon where he finished in 60:31. But after this, he went for easy training for two months, and in Hengelo (1st of June) he ran only 28:19, lapped by Bekele, Gebre and Sihine. So, when he went to Switzerland, I needed to rebuild also general endurance, also if I spent for this goal only one month. This period was of sure very important, but for running 26:30 the specific period was most fundamental.

But is not possible to say that one period is more important than another. Without basic period, is not possible to go for specific period of quality. But without specific period is not possible to reach your best. It's like building a house : is more important the first floor or the tenth floor in a house of 15 floors ? One cannot exist without the other. So, if is not possible to develop intensity without basic training, is not possible to develop performances without intensity."

From another post:

"Anyway, I continue speaking about NICHOLAS KEMBOI. He was already n. 4 and n. 7 in two different editions of World Cross Country Junior Ch. (2001 - 2002), so was not an unknown athlete. I'm his coach from september of 2001. Soon after WCCCH 2002, he was injured in a muscle, and lost 4 months of the past season. When came back, was not able to do any speed workouts, because yet felt pain in the leg. So, I decided to move him to longer distances, as he has the possibilities to become a very top marathon runner in the future (he's really born at the end of 1983). In march of this year, he was able running HM in Lisbon in 60:31, without any specific training, demonstrating his attitudes for long run. Then, was for about 40 days in Portugal for some road race, and went to Hengelo (10000m) without track preparation. His 28'19" was not so bad. After 2 weeks in Kenya, he came with me in Switzerland (Davos) from the beginning of July. I preferred to develop a good base of volume, running about 250 km per week during the first 2 weeks, with very slow training on track, but using short sprints uphill (60-80m about) for improving his capacity in recruiting the most part of his muscular fibres. He went running in Sotteville (13'42", 5th position) on 8/07, then in Algier (19/07), yet 13'42". Only after this race I decided to put some work of speed in his training. In short time, I discovered his speed, and was a surprise also for me. After a work with 4 sets of 600/500/400/300/200m (2 min rec. and 5 min among sets) in 1'33" / 1'16" / 60" / 44" / 28", he was able running the last 200m (free) in 23"7 ! So, speaking with him, I understood that he was not fast BECAUSE WAS SURE TO BE SLOW. He decided to try, changing his mentality. So, he went to Heusden (2/08) running in 13'14"43 after pacing (3rd position), then in San Sebastian (10/08) yet in 13'14"32 n. 2 with many mistakes during last lap, then in Zurich (15/8) almost won running in 13'01"14 with a good final. So, we decided to train hard 3 weeks for running 10000 in Bruxelles. I was sure about 26'45", but 26'30" surprised me also. In any case, during the last period his improvement was terrible, because every thing was really easy. For ex., on 23/8 he did a work with 3000m (2' rec) 6 x 60m sprint climbing (2' rec) x 4 times, more a final 1000 fast. His times were (in St. Moritz from 31/7, at 1800m of altitude) 8'23", 8'24", 8'17", 8'23" and 2'30"5 with last lap in 54"6 and last 200 in 24"8 (Kwalia took 5" during last lap). Kemboi may be the new Gebre, able running from 1500m to marathon. Not drug, but big talent and big motivation, and also big intelligence, because there are other athletes coming to Europe at the same level, but not able to improve because "too much kenyans" yet...."

Thank you for the reminder; I have read both of those in the past and I do not think it explains the situation fully. That is some fantastic training, but as I mentioned, there are a number of 5,000 and 10,000m runners all over the world who train at a high level and consistently and never before have I ever heard of a 28:00 10K runner taking such a gargantuan chunk out of his time. I do not think there is any improvement to compare that to on perhaps any level, especially the elite level.

Even Gebrselassie's spectacular WR in 1995 in Zurich when he ran 12:44 and broke Kiptanui's record of 12:55 does not compare. That is 11 seconds in a 5K; we are talking 99 seconds in a 10K.

Previous to 2003, Renato had only worked with Kemboi for a few weeks each year. 2003 was the first year that Renato was able to work with Kemboi for an extended period of time.

test

My explanation is very simple : Nicholas has the talent for running very close 26:00, having speed and endurance at very high level. But, before the period in St. Moritz, his training was no more than 50% of what he needs for these results. So, if an athlete running 35:00 with 5 sessions not very hard every week is able to move to 10 sessions among which there are 2 or 3 workouts of very good level, he can improve to 33:00 or less in very short time. The proof of this is in the last season. Nicholas, disturbed for many reasons, came back to the same typeof training of before, and again ran 13:19 and 27:17, with very short period of training a very little volume.

For this year, there is an important newness for him, but you can know this fact only at the end of April. I think that this new fact can help him in finding the full focus on training, that can allow him to compete with Bekele in the next future.

renato, do you have files of Kemboi's training of the entire year? i believe you posted before shaheen's training for many months? what about those of 2004 and 2005?

Renato,

Is it possible to see your training for Nicholas Kemboi before his 26:29 for 10000 meters.

Epic!

Renato,

Do you know anything about Gabrielle Rosa's group and his training? If so, could you please post something about it?

Thanks

I cannot speak about the training of Gabriele Rosa, because never we spoke together regarding the particulars of his system. I can only say that I hold him in high esteem under technical and organizational points of view. He was the first coach to understand the big potentiality of Kenyans for the Marathon, and gave them a basic phylosophy that is still very appreciated. He was also able to involve a big Company like FILA (and now NIKE) in a project that, at the end, regarded about 400 runners.

Another thing : I'm absolutely sure that he is FULLY HONEST in his training, without using any type of drug. He has a scientific and medical approach, using many tests and allowed supports, and is able to provide in short time when there is some injury that, normally, brings the athlete to lose one year.

He is essentially a marathon coach, also if, in his career, had top results also on track (with world records from Tergat and Wilson Boit Kipketer). But Marathon is his main interest.

Being a man looking at the future, he is now planning to organize something in China. We'll see in the future, but it's sure that dr. Rosa is one of the most important personages of long distances world.

TRu dat. I once saw Dr. Rosa put back a pint of Guiness and then smoke a cigar. He told me that with the vast number of people that one of dem would produce a world record in the marathon if he could coach dem. I told him that I knew some chinese hookers that could last all night. We then headed down to the hotel Noteleez and for 100 yen tried out dem bitchs. The next day he said they will hold the record

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm absolutely sure that he is FULLY HONEST in his training, without using any type of drug.

Renato, I hate to say it, but I think you're wrong.

Rosa was caught for doping offenses and driven out of cycling.

When he began coaching Kenyans, performances skyrocketed.

This not to say it ISN'T being done cleanly--it may be.

But he has proved himself a liar before.

Another instance of his dishonesty I believe to be in his reporting of his athletes' "workouts."

He reported that Tergat, at 6000 feet altitude in St. Moritz in 1997, did 25 x 400 meters in 55 seconds with 60 seconds rest.

I am a big fan of Tergat, and his 26:27 was remarkable.

But that is perhaps the single most ludicrous, ridiculous lie I have ever heard with regards to an athlete completing a high intensity training session.

That is El Guerrouj's 1500 pace, and I am all but certain even El Guerrouj could not do 10,000m at 6K altitude at 1500 pace with 60 seconds rest.

Yet he sticks by his story, as well as his racism towards "white" runners. See the story posted about the "Kenyan Odyssey."

renato, several have asked about kemboi's programs? do you have these available?

I think Renato does not want to show Kemboi's secrets

I don't know why. The syringes look just like all the others used to inject EPO.

why is that the only answer?

Racer1 wrote:

Rosa was caught for doping offenses and driven out of cycling.

When he began coaching Kenyans, performances skyrocketed.

This not to say it ISN'T being done cleanly--it may be.

But he has proved himself a liar before.

So, it sounds like you are leaning fairly strongly towards the "many Kenyans are dirty" theory. Yes, you are not 100% certain, but you say:

1) Rosa DEFINITELY doped cyclists. Was this ever PROVEN BEYOND ANY DOUBT? (I really don't know. But I thought he was brought up on charges, but never convicted. Besides that, lots and lots of rumor. Show the exact doping convictions against him. And like I said, I am really asking, though I surely thought the charges were controversial)

2) Kenyans' performances skyrocketed in conjunction with their association with Rosa, who is, according to you, a convicted performance-enhancing drug-prescriber.

3) He is a proven liar.

So.......put it all together, and it seems like you believe that many, many (after all, Rosa is associated with LOTS of Kenyan runners) Kenyans are dirty.

And that is the theory many propose to explain their (the East Africans in general) dominance and the incredible jump in WR's the last 15 years. OK, sounds like you are sort of buying into that theory.

BUT.....if you go down that road.......don't stop. Because if 3:26 (we already know the Morrocans have had some dirty athletes), 7:20, 12:39 (Komen), and 26:27 & 2:05 (Tergat) are all ONLY possible with drugs (and lets face it, THAT is the general contention of many who believe that drugs are the MAIN reason for the huge drop in WR's in that last dozen years), THEN..............does that mean Bekele, and Geb, and Ngeny, and Lagat, and Kemboi, Sihine, and Kipketer, and Kipchoge, and Koech, and Korir, and Rutto, and Barmasi and Shaheen are ALL ON DRUGS????

I aks that , because ALL those people I just mentioned have run either better, as good as, or nearly as good as the earlier aforementioned "too good to be true"/ "supposedly tainted" / "controversial" performances I mentioned (some of which were done by Rosa athletes, and most were Kenyan times). Don't you see where I am going with this? There are LOTS of East African (and some North African) runners running "extraordinary" times these days. Now I know that this drug issue is not an absolute either/or proposition, that EITHER the East Africans are dirty OR they are not, BUT........to use drugs to explain away the extraordinary improvements in WR's in the last 15 years, one SORT OF HAS TO go to one side or the other. Either you think the LARGE MAJORITY of East Africans ARE ON DRUGS or you think the LARGE MAJORITY ARE CLEAN. Because, if so many (as I contend) of the East Africans (with a possible few exceptions) can do these times clean, they clearly they don't NEED the drugs to perform like that, and the idea that "the only way to explain such and such a time is drugs" theory falls apart.

There may be a few bad apples, but..........AGAIN......you kind of need to pick a side here.

The East African Men ABSOLUTELY DOMINATE the rest of the world in distance running, and have ABSOLUTLELY CRUSHED previous WR's. And now the East African WOMEN are starting to ABSOLUTLEY CRUSH the rest of the world in women's distance running (with a few exceptions). If you think such utter dominance and improvements in times is hard to fathom, well either you think drugs are the main explanation for this phenomenon or you don't. I CLEARLY DO NOT. Such a conspiracy could never be so widespread and last so long without being discovered.

The Chinese women fell apart once their drug use was "outed" (their swimmers, some of their runners, etc). Did the men ever do anything???? No. Drugs DID explain that phenomenon.

The dominace of East German "women" fell apart once their wide-spread drug use stopped. Did their men ever do anything comparable in running??? No way (some performances, but nothing like their women sprinters). Drugs explained that phenomenon.

Now The East African MEN AND WOMEN have a depth of performances in distance running that now are unquestionably the greatest we have ever seen in athletics bar none. Either drugs are playing a HUGE ROLE in this phenomenon or they are not. There are just too many great athletes doing these unbelievable performances to think: "well, 1/2 are and 1/2 aren't. " Why? Because do you think there were some CLEAN Chinese or East German women doing comparable performances to the Dirty ones???? Of course not. If you can be the best in the world clean, you will most likely NOT BOTHER DOING IT DIRTY (for most athletes).

Clearly so many of the East Africans are running mind-boggling performances clean. So there is no reason to assume many would bother with trying it dirty Some might, some in all countries do. But if it is only a few bad apples, as I contend, your "Dr Rosa is currently a dirty coach " theory and "the huge drop in Kenyan in performances is due to drugs" theory both fall flat.

Pick a side Racer1. Are you accusing Renato's athletes of doing drugs too? Because he has guys that can run with Rosa's. Does Rosa only pick the slow guys? Or the dishonest ones??

With the East African phenomenon, drugs are NOT the main explanation (they may play a very small role, its possible). No way, no how.