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Antonio, I have read this thread but not yet seen a real explication of your training system as with Renato's.
Can you explain?
Renato can you comment on the weekend?
this is a good thread, i enjoy seeing it updated
james g wrote:
Renato can you comment on the weekend?
Indeed, Renato, I believe you said after World X-C's posts could return with some normality and you could talk about the athletes' training camps, how they did at World X-C's, and what planet Bekele comes from.
I'm very happy about the results of my Qatari athletes in WCCCh, also if in short race we can do something better. Shaheen (that was at 85% of his top shape, having suffered for a problem of virus, not very bad but disturbing him during the period from the beginning of March to 10 of the month) tried the impossible, running 200m in about 26.0 after 2.200m with still 2 km to go. He was able to put Bekele back of 30m and Songok of 50m in about 300m. Of course, after 800m he payed the attack in very heavy way.
The reason of this attack was that the most part of the athletes thought Bekele in medium shape, and at the same time Shaheen was afraid about the finish of Chebii and Songok. Anyway, it was a mistake. I'm sure that, without this mistake, the correct position for Shaheen could be the second, and in this way Qatar could win the silver medal as team with 30 points against 33 of Kenya.
But winning bronze medal in all the events (short, long and junior) plus the individual bronze of Hassan, was very satisfactory for us. I was particularly happy about the 5th position in short and 12th in long of Jamal (in the past Kipkemoi Katui), an athlete 27 years old, that last year ran 13:19 and 8:24 in steeple with a ticket payed by Shaheen for running in Europe, and that I put together Shaheen two years ago only for training. This guy never competed before, and I think that can run under 13:00 during summer. Another athlete able to reach the top shape for the cross was Ahmed Hassan Abdullah (Albert Chepkurui) that, after the bronze in WHMCh last year, was on the podium in the cross for the first time in his life, with a very intelligent race (with one lap to go he was n. 9 very back the leading group).
But I'm also very happy about Shaheen in long cross. He showed me that in the future can become competitive also in the longer distance.
Regarding Bekele, he's a monster. I did a comment on him few minutes ago, on another post.
One thing is sure : if someone tries to beat him, he can be destroyed going to asphyxia in the last lap. We are talking about an athlete that improved the WR of 5000m running alone the last 2 km under 5:00, and the WR of 10000 running alone the last 5 km in 13:05.
But, back Bekele, the situation is very fluid. Ethiopians announced Bihranu and Dinkessa in very good shape, and they arrived back Hassan. Zersenay Tadesse, that won a bronze in OG because Boniface Kiprop lost for too much aggressivity, this time was able to legitimate his silver with a very impressive performance, and his 2nd place was due to his value, not to the mistake of other athletes.
In short race, Songok made the mistake to follow Shaheen, and at the end finished the energies, so Chebii could reach a very good 2nd place coming from back.
Too strong for the other runners Augustin Choge in the juniors. Is clear the hand of Brother Colm in the development of this talent, very intelligent and educated boy that can really be the future of Kenya.
About the women, the young Dibaba was able to imitate Bekele, winning both the races with her very strong finish. But, really, I was not particularly impressed by some talent out of the "top" normality.
African runners are always the strongest, and now Qatar and Bahrain follow them with runners coming from African Countries. For Europe and America is always more difficult to have motivation for competing in cross at high level.
Last thing, very delicated but real. IAAF must absolutely find a system for controlling the real age of Juniors and Youth. There are Countries that change the passport making the athletes younger of 5 or more years. For example, I had in the past a my athlete officially born in 1984 (Kenyan) that now is a Bahrain runner born in .... 1989. This is a very scandal, and is not possible that all the world must accept this situation. Another athlete (see interviews on Kenyan newspapers) is the old Kenyan Hosea Kosgei, called in the Kenyan camp together the Kenyan team one month ago, born in 1986, suddenly competing with Bahrain with official date of birth 1988.
This is unacceptable. I invite all the Federations that are correct in their situations to request to IAAF a commission for solving the problem.
renato what was your opinion on the utter dominance of the african nations and the mid-east? They have always dominated but this was incredible.
Very impressive and courageous run by Shaheen considering I did not know that he has come down with sickness...
Also, I was curious as to your thoughts about Lebid at the WXC...
Renato, I wonder about you saying these things about Bekele.
He is a phenomenal athlete but he, like anyone, can be beaten.
Haile Gebrselassie ran times very close to Bekele's and seems better at shorter distances. At age 30 last winter he ran faster than did the 22 year old Bekele at 3,000m. Bekele has never run a 1500m-3,000m as a serious record attempt, and his 2 mile indoors fell short of Gebrselassie's mark, albeit under difficult circumstances.
Regardless, he has been outkicked by El Guerrouj, Kipchoge, Chebii, and Sihine. He has noted himself in races that he cannot go any faster in the last 400m, but he can go longer at the same pace.
He has done incredible things but there are many athletes currently, who, with a fully professional approach and very hard but intelligent training and good racing opportunities can beat Bekele.
I am surprised you say he is unbeatable at 15 km considering his PR is 42:42 and he has been beaten by Gebrselassie in his only apparent road race. Sihine also ran 41:38 stopping 200m short by mistake and missing Felix Limo's WR.
I am surprised because you yourself train several athletes with the capability to beat him.
Shaheen outkicked Hicham El Guerrouj and ran 12:50. Very few athletes have EVER outkicked a 3:26 1500 runner, and Shaheen also ran 3,000m in 7:53 over barriers. In the United States, an athlete who runs 7:53 for 3,000m on the flat indoors is considered to have a very good race.
You mentioned too that Nicholas Kemboi, after jogging around for 8 months, ran 27:17 in his last minute bid for the Olympics, and at age 20 stayed with Haile Gebrselassie until the last 400m for the 5th best time ever in the 10,000m behind only Gebrselassie (26:22.75 and 26:29), Tergat (26:27.85) and Bekele (26:20.31).
To repeat, he is a fantastic athlete, but it does no one any good, especially a top athlete, to create a myth in their mind about how someone is "unbeatable." Everyone can be beaten. This is how Ingrid Kristiansen first beat Greta Waitz, who she considered impossible to defeat.
She had created a psychological barrier that caused her to lose races she could have otherwise won. After working with a sports psychologist, she finally beat Greta and from then forth did so frequently.
I thank you for your race report as it was very interesting. Running a 26 second 200 in the middle of a 4,000m race in mud seems almost impossible and I can see how Shaheen faded.
So what Renato is saying is that Galen Rupp was in fact top 10......
Racer 1, I speak essentially about cross, and I repeat : in long cross Bekele is unbeatable. Go to my technical analysis in another post. Bekele is a perfect machine for the cross. I agree with you that he can be beated on track, and in 5000m this already happened. But, at the moment, nobody has the physical and mental talent for beating him in 10000m. Don't look only for what you can see. The mentality is something that you cannot know, only who really knows these athletes can know. I tell you that, in the world, the FULLY PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES like metality in long distances are Bekele, Sihine, Shaheen, Kipchoge and Tergat. When I say "fully professional" I mean THE ORGANIZATION OF THEIR LIFE. Under this point of view, the n. 1 was Gebrselassie, and for Kenya was Moses Kiptanui. ALL THE OTHER ATHLETES HAVE LONG PERIODS OF THE YEAR NOT DEDICATED TO ATHLETICS. One thing is running, one thing is training.
Of course, everyone can be beated, but when ? I think that we have to await a lot of years, or the first opportunity with Bekele out of shape (but if he is out of shape, he doesn't compete). This is the reality, believe to someone living every day these situation.
Renato thanks for sharing all your training and ideas on here. What can our athletes do to get better?
Buy more EPO. This guy Renato will give you answer to questions he likes to answer. But he won't give you the real reason behind why his athletes came to him in the first place. The drugs.
always takes an asshole to ruin a good thread and offend someone who genorously gives his time and experience to this board
sucka busta wrote:
Buy more EPO. This guy Renato will give you answer to questions he likes to answer. But he won't give you the real reason behind why his athletes came to him in the first place. The drugs.
Another idiot chimes in (as I suspect, the same 5-6 losers posting under different names).
Though I generally do not converse with mentally damaged people such as yourself, I will request that you give evidence.
You have one day to reply on this thread with evidence that the Kenyans are taking performance enhancing drugs.
If you do not reply, consider it an admission of your cowardice and a confession that you are, in fact, an exceptionally stupid idiot.
If you DO reply...we'll all have a good laugh at whatever fiction you concoct.
Renato Canova wrote:
Racer 1, I speak essentially about cross, and I repeat : in long cross Bekele is unbeatable.
I read your technical analysis, but I do not agree completely.
Paul Tergat won for more years than Bekele (1995-1999) and he must surely have been considered unbeatable. 5 years of wins in the world's toughest race in all conditions.
And then, in 2000, he was beaten.
El Guerrouj was considered unbeatable with a 3 year win streak heading into Sydney, having run 3:43.13 and 3:26.00.
And he lost.
This is why these races are run. What is true on paper is not always true in reality.
There are many athletes who, given proper training, and with good talent, should be able to improve their systems and reach a high level specific to cross-country. Why then, could these hypothetical athletes not beat Bekele?
Racer 1,
You make some good points, but, are in my opinion making mountains out of molehills.
Of course Bekele can lose, because he has already lost (as we know, and as you pointed out). But I think Renato's points were:
1) When he is at his best, he is unbeatable in X-C.
This is well established by the facts. Because when was the last time he lost an X-C race??? A long time. And you compared him to Tergat in X-C. What Bekele has done is more impressive in my opinion. Let's compare:
*Tergat 5 year period: 5 long course wins
*Bekele 5 year period: 4 long course wins & 1 silver (AS A JUNIOR....important to note), PLUS.....4 shourt course wins and 1 junior win.
And the Ethiopian contigent has gotten better since Tergat's day, so Bekele had to battle his own teammates' depth.
And Bekele's long wins came only one day after intense short course wins.
And several of Bekele's wins were absolute demolitions (I think Tergats' were closer)
AND.....Bekele has done all this by age 22!!!
So there is no reason to dispute Renato on this. Just about ANYthing is possible (this is obvious), but the likelihood of beating Bekele at X-C is extremely unlikely.
2) Bekele is nearly unbeatable in track.
It can happen at 5k, when he runs poor tactics, and faces a 3:43 miler and lets it come down to a kick. Yes, if he repeats those errors against THAT guy, he will lose again. If he takes out from the gun, which he is capable of, likely he will not lose. 12:37 MOSTLY BY HIMSELF!! Remember that. And 10k on the track he absolutley killed Geb in Paris with his kick, when Geb was still near the top of his game. With a slight change of tactics, Bekele is 5k/10k WORLD AND OLYMPIC CHAMPION at age 21/22. Impressed yet???
So of course he CAN lose. It's possible, things go wrong, people get sick, fiancees die, people expect to outkick 3:43 milers, people are only 20/21 years old, etc. BUT.........right now he has cemented himself as the most impressive distance runner ever (combining X-C and track), and he is only 22, and will probably get better. So he is pretty damn unbeatable. Let's leave it at that.
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
2) Bekele is nearly unbeatable in track.
It can happen at 5k, when he runs poor tactics, and faces a 3:43 miler and lets it come down to a kick. Yes, if he repeats those errors against THAT guy, he will lose again. If he takes out from the gun, which he is capable of, likely he will not lose. 12:37 MOSTLY BY HIMSELF!!
In Paris he took it out very hard, running 2:31.96 for the first 1,000m and 7:45 through 3K. El Guerrouj still stayed with him, and having never attempted the WR, it seems too early to say if El Guerrouj cannot stay with him.
Remember that. And 10k on the track he absolutley killed Geb in Paris with his kick, when Geb was still near the top of his game. With a slight change of tactics, Bekele is 5k/10k WORLD AND OLYMPIC CHAMPION at age 21/22. Impressed yet???
I have the video. Two points:
1. Gebrselassie, in 2003, was not at the top of his game from an end-of-race standpoint.
He had a groin strain and bronchitis throughout the season. In Hengelo, where he was outkicked by Bekele, and in Rome, where he lost to Chebii and Bekele, he still managed reasonably quick last 200m's but, as Jos Hermens noted, his form while sprinting was completely off. The race in Paris was closer than the result seems.
Gebrselassie was still moving fast down the straightaway, but as you may have seen before, he has a tendency to give up if someone gets the jump on him. Bekele put in a very short, quick burst for 3-5 seconds and opened a bit if a gap, after which Gebrselassie shut it down for the most part.
So of course he CAN lose. It's possible, things go wrong, people get sick, fiancees die, people expect to outkick 3:43 milers, people are only 20/21 years old, etc. BUT.........right now he has cemented himself as the most impressive distance runner ever (combining X-C and track), and he is only 22, and will probably get better. So he is pretty damn unbeatable. Let's leave it at that.
I agree, but my point is that I am surprised the coach of the very same athletes who have the talent to beat Bekele is essentially saying that it is not possible to do it.
It is.
Well lets see. Starting with Trackhead, you call me an asshole. You are the one using this message board to sell videos and running shoes. Why the BroJos haven't kicked you off for not paying them anything for using this board as your own private market place I will never know. To me that is very underhanded and well makes you an asshole.
Racer, you can kiss my ass. Answer me this have any of Renato's athletes ever tested positive for anything? Yeah now shut your mouth and continue your mindless dribbleon the board.
sucka busta wrote:
Answer me this have any of Renato's athletes ever tested positive for anything?
No.
Yeah now shut your mouth and continue your mindless dribbleon the board.
Great gales of quaking laughter will soon be shaking my frame as I consider the irony of this situation.