If every achievement provokes debate about whether it was doped or not that is the very definition of a sport that has lost all credibility. Doping today is like the Prohibition era; no one is selling - but everyone is buying. If the Ingebrigtsens aren't doping, they are virtuous teetotallers in an establishment for drinkers. Believe that if you will.
rekrunner wrote:
1) Thanks to pioneering ABP scientists like Ashenden, it is public knowledge that even clean athletes may be flagged like this due to the indirect nature of the ABP, and several known non-doping factors -- hence the need for expert evaluations (something largely lacking in public forums like this).
Yeah...and it is also public knowledge that many doped Olympic & WC medalists don't get flagged due to the very generous thresholds of the ABP (see Savinova, Zaripova, Poistogova and co.).
Debate? Can you have a debate with no basis?
Armstronglivs wrote:
If every achievement provokes debate about whether it was doped or not that is the very definition of a sport that has lost all credibility. Doping today is like the Prohibition era; no one is selling - but everyone is buying. If the Ingebrigtsens aren't doping, they are virtuous teetotallers in an establishment for drinkers. Believe that if you will.
This does not sound like public knowledge from ABP scientists like Ashenden.
You only tell one aspect of the issue wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
1) Thanks to pioneering ABP scientists like Ashenden, it is public knowledge that even clean athletes may be flagged like this due to the indirect nature of the ABP, and several known non-doping factors -- hence the need for expert evaluations (something largely lacking in public forums like this).
Yeah...and it is also public knowledge that many doped Olympic & WC medalists don't get flagged due to the very generous thresholds of the ABP (see Savinova, Zaripova, Poistogova and co.).
I myself wrote about facts, so I have to take the lesson. It was Hans Seppelt's , ARD, documentary: "The Greed for Gold", jan 2019 that led the police to the dopingrazzia. Hans Seppelt was, as far as I know, instrumental inexposing the russian doping. Thank you for the correction.
rekrunner wrote:
Debate? Can you have a debate with no basis?
Armstronglivs wrote:
If every achievement provokes debate about whether it was doped or not that is the very definition of a sport that has lost all credibility. Doping today is like the Prohibition era; no one is selling - but everyone is buying. If the Ingebrigtsens aren't doping, they are virtuous teetotallers in an establishment for drinkers. Believe that if you will.
So who are you responding to - endlessly - if there is no debate about doping here? It would be a little odd if you were only arguing with yourself. But you are able to kid yourself that there isn't a problem, by treating each commenter individually like a single apple from a tree, when there is a whole orchard of opinion that doesn't agree with you.
You said "debate about whether (Jakob's performance) was doped or not". If you go back and read all of my inputs into this thread, you will find I debated no such thing. Similarly, if I go back and look at your contribution, I would not call that debate. Your only arguments appear to be analogies to everything else except running, like drinking in the Prohibition.
Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Debate? Can you have a debate with no basis?
So who are you responding to - endlessly - if there is no debate about doping here? It would be a little odd if you were only arguing with yourself. But you are able to kid yourself that there isn't a problem, by treating each commenter individually like a single apple from a tree, when there is a whole orchard of opinion that doesn't agree with you.
What I wrote was that I was not aware. I found "The Duped Cheat"(English title) in Jan. 2019 by Hajo Seppelt, but still not clear what investigative role that played. The "Wikipedia" entry says "The case first came to light through admissions by cross-country skier Johannes Dürr in late February 2019". With respect to Russian doping, I am more sure that Hajo Seppelt was more a lucky passive recipient than investigative journalist. WADA had been investigating for about a year, before WADA's Chief Investigator sent whistleblowers to Seppelt. Similarly the IAAF Ethics Commission was conducting parallel investigations before the involvement of ARD.
KaareV wrote:
I myself wrote about facts, so I have to take the lesson. It was Hans Seppelt's , ARD, documentary: "The Greed for Gold", jan 2019 that led the police to the dopingrazzia. Hans Seppelt was, as far as I know, instrumental inexposing the russian doping. Thank you for the correction.
rekrunner wrote:
You said "debate about whether (Jakob's performance) was doped or not".
If you go back and read all of my inputs into this thread, you will find I debated no such thing.
Similarly, if I go back and look at your contribution, I would not call that debate.
Your only arguments appear to be analogies to everything else except running, like drinking in the Prohibition.
Armstronglivs wrote:
So who are you responding to - endlessly - if there is no debate about doping here? It would be a little odd if you were only arguing with yourself. But you are able to kid yourself that there isn't a problem, by treating each commenter individually like a single apple from a tree, when there is a whole orchard of opinion that doesn't agree with you.
So it isn't a "debate", because you haven't been debating? Solipsism doesn't do your position justice. It is immaterial whether you agree with anyone else, but the fact remains that scarcely a thread goes by without a claim being made about doping - which is enough to bring you barking out of your kennel, as you always do.
Let's Tell It Like It Is wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
So they can't be doping? The longer the explanation the less credible.
One of brothers may have been: Henrik appeared on the FB hacked WADA ABP database from 2016 as "passport suspicious/likely doping" flag:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/07/say-aint-fancy-bears-hack-reveal-many-track-fields-biggest-stars-likely-doping-see-latest-fancy-bears-documents/
To me this is damning. The issue for me is, was it Henrik's blood values or an androgen red flag? Why I ask this is Jakob could run super-adult fast at 13/14 (like a 15 min 5k or Vo2Max of 72). Surely he wouldn't be on epo at such a young age if his brothers were on it? Teenagers though do take Steriods with little thought. My view is that many elites aren't risking epo these days but may well be on low octane doping of creams and patches. That maybe plausible here. I just can't see when, if guilty by association, Jakob would have started on the hot sauce 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18? Nick Willis seems to be into the Jakob craze as well, from what I know of him he has no time for those he knows are doping. So it is an interesting conundrum.
Norwegian athletes excel in marginal sports - Ingebrigtens are an exception.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Nick Willis seems to be into the Jakob craze as well, from what I know of him he has no time for those he knows are doping.
Why this trust into what Willis says? Because of his overly righteous speeches a la Radcliffe and Kiprop?
a) How would he know what someone over in Norway would be doing?
b) How are the chances that he himself is clean? A cheat in real life who set his lifetime 1500 m (!) PR at age 32 (!!)?
(Yes in Monaco, but he had a couple of good races in Monaco before).
Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
You said "debate about whether (Jakob's performance) was doped or not".
If you go back and read all of my inputs into this thread, you will find I debated no such thing.
Similarly, if I go back and look at your contribution, I would not call that debate.
Your only arguments appear to be analogies to everything else except running, like drinking in the Prohibition.
So it isn't a "debate", because you haven't been debating? Solipsism doesn't do your position justice. It is immaterial whether you agree with anyone else, but the fact remains that scarcely a thread goes by without a claim being made about doping - which is enough to bring you barking out of your kennel, as you always do.
I actually said that:
1) I would not call what you are doing "debate", and
2) none of my contributions in this thread were about whether (Jakob's performance) was doped or not.
It might be true that "scarcely a thread goes by without a claim being made about doping".
yyy wrote:
Norwegian athletes excel in marginal sports - Ingebrigtens are an exception.
Dont quite understand this. Why are they an exception? Is not running a marginal sport? Not much more followed than xc skiing.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
So it isn't a "debate", because you haven't been debating? Solipsism doesn't do your position justice. It is immaterial whether you agree with anyone else, but the fact remains that scarcely a thread goes by without a claim being made about doping - which is enough to bring you barking out of your kennel, as you always do.
I actually said that:
1) I would not call what you are doing "debate", and
2) none of my contributions in this thread were about whether (Jakob's performance) was doped or not.
It might be true that "scarcely a thread goes by without a claim being made about doping".
This may surprise you, but it is possible that the doping issue can be debated without your participation. But, sadly, that is rarely the case.
It doesn't surprise me, but seems to surprise you.
Whatever was happening with respect to the "doping issue", it was already happening without my participation.
You responded to me, with a response that did not correspond to anything I posted in this thread.
You seem to be desperately wanting me to participate in your doping "debate", in order to tell me I'm wrong.
I guess it's because deep down you feel like you lost between our previous exchanges, when I simply asked you for knowledge of running, and you responded with weird analogies like drinking during the prohibition, or businessmen rejecting free money.
But please, by all means, carry on without me.
When you post ten times per page of thread and when there is essentially zero content to anything you say--I have not been able to draw out a single statement as a summary of your posts on this page--it is time to dial it back and post only when you actually have something to say. This is absurd what you and armstronglivs do to every thread in which you participate.
Either say something about Ingebrigtsen or don't post on this thread.
I am looking forward to seeing whether the Ingebrigtsens can break 3:30 or 13 this year. They have 3:30/3:30/3:31 at the 1500m--and Henrik isn't running the event nowadays because of injury issues; 7:36 and likely equal or better potential from Jakob and Filip; and 13:02/13:10-11/13:16. Pretty impressive and illustrative of taking a very well-constructed training program and applying it consistently for years with a fantastic three person training group.
This page alone there were literally 6 posts from rekrunner and 4 from armstronglivs for ten total. Ban them if they won't restrain themselves.
Norway is the best sporting nation per capita every year, while the United States is the best sporting nation overall every year.
Big Dave22 wrote:
Legit world junior record. Extremely close to the clean WR. Unbelievable. I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised. Watching Rhonex get owned also brought a smile to my face.
I still think Jakob is ready to pop off a 143 800.
If you think he's clean, I have some sand to sell you that will make you stay whatever age you want forever! Only $1,000 a month. DM me. He is making a mockery of the sport at this point. He's literally juiced more than the Chinese and Russian women combined and laughing at everyone as he walks by.