What are the best ultras in the world? (Sponsored by HOKA ONE ONE)

Any others>? wrote:

A different type of question, but where do most of you go for ultra running news and updates? I've enjoyed checking irunfar.com every Monday for their weekly recaps and their race interviews are quality, but the site leaves me wanting more on other days, in terms of just general information or training updates

Irunfar does an excellent job keeping us in the loop with some of the more premier races, the more competitive ones in terms of elites. Their Western States and UTMB coverage is hands down light years beyond anything else you'll find for moment by moment race coverage.

Their archives are pretty damn informative, as I nerd out on a lot of sport history too. Other than threads here (mostly troll nonsense), I haven't found any other sites that come close to what irunfar is doing. They have their weekly round ups too which you noted, but unless there's something more specific out there that we haven't seen, I'd be happy to hear about it. I think InstaGram has evolved with a lot more transparency from the runners. I refuse to get on Strava though. Although, I've had to unfollow some runners online because nearly every post is scripted to be an ad, which is disheartening because I know that's probably some stipulation in their contract, but it gets tiresome, and I bet the runner would agree.

Maybe LetsRun adopts more Ultra threads. It's clear, there's a lot of genuine interest in sport.

Besides discussing the greatest races, this thread has established 2 other areas we want to discuss What are the greatest ultra marathon records? and Who are the GOATS of the Ultras?

Yesterday on our weekly call we came up with the idea to each week or few days to have a separate topic of conversation.

So next week in addition to discussing the greatest races we also start discussing

1) What are the greatest records in the sport?

2) The Week after that 12-18th we discuss the GOATS.

That still gives us 2 weeks to finalize up the greatest races discussion. I think then we break that discussion to down to A) Road b) Trail 100 miles and under and c) Extreme.

Maybe we have a separate discussion on most beautiful.

What are your thoughts on this framework?

I have to plug the "East Coast Trail and Ultra" podcast. Absolutely hilarious and uncut interviews with elite runners as well as regular weekend warriors highlighting the less known races and communities east of the mississippi. If you're easily offended and uptight, not the podcast for you, otherwise, hilarious informative content.

Trails are the only thing nowadays.

History, physiology, road/track/indoor, anything over 100 miles: a fringe or theoretical subject perhaps better discussed separately.

wejo wrote:

Besides discussing the greatest races, this thread has established 2 other areas we want to discuss What are the greatest ultra marathon records? and Who are the GOATS of the Ultras?

Yesterday on our weekly call we came up with the idea to each week or few days to have a separate topic of conversation.

So next week in addition to discussing the greatest races we also start discussing

1) What are the greatest records in the sport?

2) The Week after that 12-18th we discuss the GOATS.

That still gives us 2 weeks to finalize up the greatest races discussion. I think then we break that discussion to down to A) Road b) Trail 100 miles and under and c) Extreme.

Maybe we have a separate discussion on most beautiful.

What are your thoughts on this framework?

My brother ran the pikes peak ascent which got rerouted due to storms or something along those lines last year. We were talking about the Pikes Peak marathon record that Matt Carpenter set in 1993 with a 3:16. He said after just running the ascent course, he couldn't wrap his head that record performance. He's not an elite runner, but a relatively strong mountain athlete himself. "That's just utterly f***ing insane, beyond insane" were his exact words on our phone call.

That appears to be the general consensus amongst the elite crowd too. I'd say that's up there in terms of MUT. Not an Ultra distance, but a pretty untouchable record in most eyes.

Carpenter also ran a 3:22 marathon over 17,000 ft of altitude. He has a registered 90 vo2max, one of the highest ever recorded. What the... lol

jesseriley wrote:

Trails are the only thing nowadays.

History, physiology, road/track/indoor, anything over 100 miles: a fringe or theoretical subject perhaps better discussed separately.

Some of the fringe stuff gets a lot of attention. Courtney Dauwalter got a lot of attention for winning the Moab 240.

Camille Herronś 24 hour record seems very well regarded.

Separate categories for stuff I think is a good idea but maybe we should start some of them this week instead of waiting.

1. Most prestigious and competitive - Comrades

2. Favorite: Comrades, Two Oceans, and JFK 50

3. GOAT - Camille Herron and Yiannis Kouros

4. Hardest Course - Barkley

World Record - 100 miles for both men and women

Camille somehow was rated #2 in N. America last year (bs!) by a certain magazine after her WR, ha ha.

24 hours IS the classic, but no one knows or believes this anymore.

Thank you. Look at at the spread/finisher density of the top 10 at each year in the past 5-6 years. Compare a race like TNF50 SF to Western States and you'll see the difference. The limiting factor of "golden tickets" (and limited field size) does not add depth to the competitiveness factor at Western States. You could even say that because they keep inviting back the top 10 that it doesn't "add very much new depth" Guys also turn down golden tickets as well (I have twice). Yes, I was only 11th at the 2016 Western States, but even if I was top 10 (and was invited back) I wasn't planning on doing it again the next year (mainly because I wanted to focus on UTMB and mainly because I don't really like "net downhill courses!"...I tend to suck at downhill running). There are a lot of sponsored runners that choose not to do Western States (even though they can get in). As far as jesseriley stating that he seems surprised Camille Herron was ranked highly after last year: Dude she WON Comrades AND set the 24 hour record!

Mandatory wrote:

WS100 is a weird one, on the surface it looks competitive and with the top 10 getting a return spot it should be but in reality most years on the mens side you could look at the start list and if everyone has a reasonably trouble free race there's only 2 or 3 guys who are going to win and the rest even in the top 10 are a level down. A top 10 guy is only going to win by virtue of the people in front dropping rather than beating them in a running race.

actually (sorry jesse!) I just realized that you are implying maybe that Camille should have been ranked #1 in N. America (after her 24 hour record). To be fair though, Courtney Dauwalter has amazing range (better range?) and had an amazing year.

Really enjoying this thread. Been reading the message boards since 2001-2002 almost daily and this is bringing back some awesome, informative discussion that has been lost for quite some time!

I think when trying to classify the "best" ultras in the world we have to define best. Are we talking in terms of popularity and followers of the race or races that are the most competitive and have the sheer volume of participants? For me I'd like to combine the two and that would most likely be UTMB series (trail)and then comrades(road). I think just about every fan of the sport of ultra/trail running follows UTMB weekend and then you have to look at the number of participants allowed to race and the competition and depth like Sage has stated.

Western States is a HUGE event when it comes to media/fans of the sport but because of the number of runners allowed to race it keeps it from being the best ultra in the world.

It’s a bit taboo to openly disrespect Camille’s awesome 24-hour (on an evil “track”), but many do so privately, and that’s a shame. Courtney was deserving of #1 all around, I’m sure.

Without making any more enemies than I have already, perhaps I can suggest that trails or “other” is a hopelessly false dichotomy. It’s all running. History (doh! I had to say that!) teaches that various venues have been considered appropriate, and that distance is the defining characteristic.

In our own time the marathon has been crowned the classic of distance running, but it was long confined to just the Olympics & a few local races.

Dare to believe that even concrete loops in Queens are trod in wisdom & good health for months at a time.

Trail- Kilian Jornet, Ellie Greenwood for numerous competitive wins and current iconic course records

Trail Records- Francois D'Haene at UTMB 2017 (shortened course but still would have been a CR in tough conditions against a strong field), Rory Bosio at UTMB 2013

Road/Track- Yiannis Kouros, Camille Herron

Records- Yiannis 24hr WR, Camille 100 mile WR

GOAT most well rounded- Ann Trason, Jonas Buud or Max King for shorter ultras, Mike Morton or Scott Jurek for longer ultras

I would say the pikes peak marathon is actually much weaker than the ascent at least in the last decade. That could change. You've had big names like Joe Gray come in and drop 2:05 which is close to record. A few top contenders at world mountain running champs have also done the ascent and not the marathon. Prize purse is better in the ascent is why I think this has become history lately anyway

Thanks Hoka for sponsoring this shoe contest. I think Kipchoge would crush any ultra race and world records if he had the financial incentive to give it a shot. A lot of people don't realize that many Ethiopians also train on trails at high altitude and many of these are tough trails. What is it, 23,000+ high school kids run a mile under 5 minutes every year. After high school, where I didn't break 5 minutes (5:02 PR), I went and did a 50 mile with no training and ran a bit over 9 hours. A friend of mine who also I don't believe broke 5 minutes in high school jogged to a bit over 8 hours. Yes, these are slow times, but I beat a significant number of those high school kids who are running under 4 minutes could crush it on the small ultra scene.

Ultra's are definitely a niche calling and the biggest problem with ultra races in the United States at least is that all of the really interesting and exciting races are basically impossible to get in, so they end up not being competitive, not to mention the general lack of interest due, among other things, to low cash prices and lack of tv and news coverage. People generally run ultras because they are an adventure that they often don't know if they are even going to finish.

In terms of impossibility of getting into races, I would say two of the most interesting races with cool histories are Badwater (135 miles from Death Valley to Mt. Whitney trailhead) and the Barkley marathon (~100 miles with 60,000 ft of ascent). Barkely accepts 40 people and Badwater only 100. Not to mention, Badwater used to an incredible race where you went all the way to the top of Mt. Whitney, but due to National Park Service regulations you can no longer climb the mountain, so in my mind at least the race became much less interesting. Even Western States limits the field to less than 400 people due to regulations in the parks, so I don't think you can really call that a competitive race - especially as they don't invite many talented runners to enter.

If you are looking at the United States, the JFK 50 mile race is probably the most prestigious, just because pretty much anyone can get in if you pay the steep entry fee (now over $200 bucks which is a lot for ultras), and they typically have a field of around 1,000 people. So, even though it is the oldest and one of the biggest in the US, local 10ks often have more runners.

So, I actually think that fastest known times are more prestigious and competitive in the United States, because anyone can do them at any time and there is no insane cost or field limit.

I definitely recommend that you check out this website:

https://fastestknowntime.com/

They include comments on the best FKTs of the year.

I personally think that the Appalachian Trail FKT may be the most prestigious and competitive. If you have not seem seen the videos and read about Scott Jurek and Karl Meltzer's record-setting runs I recommend you check them out.

*What are the most prestigious/most competitive ultramarathons in the world to win?

As mentioned above, the United States is lame in terms of the ultra scene due to limits on field size for all the cool races. I think there is no doubt that Comrades is the most competitive and prestigious due to field size and the number of talented racers running, although UTMB should also be in the discussion as it is a different kind of race.

Japan's ultraunners are also insane, and Lake Saroma is one of the most high profile races. This past year when Nao Kazami set the world record, 5 people finished the first marathon in 2:33! That is incredible for a race that is almost 2.5 marathon.

http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2018/06/kazami-breaks-100-km-world-record-at.html

The International Association of Ultraunners also has 100km and 24 hour championships that could be reasonably considered world championships.

*What is your favorite ultra? What is the most beautiful ultra? Is there a bucket list of ultras that most amateurs should aspire to run?

Again, this is not really an ultra, although I believe that it should be considered as one, but the rim-to rim-to rim on the Grand Canyon is my favorite and likely the most beautiful ultra in the country. Check out the great interview on irunfar of walmsley crushing it

https://www.irunfar.com/2016/11/jim-walmsleys-grand-canyon-r2r2r-and-r2r-fkt-report.html

there is also a great video of rob krar setting a previous record.

*Who is the GOAT of ultra running?

For long distance on flat grounds it is definitely Yiannis Kouros. Especially with the recent news about Abraham Kiptum, I must say though that I don't know if his numbers are possible without PEDs, and I am not sure if he was ever tested. Sage in his interview didn't talk much about doping although he has been a big advocate of anti-doping. Doping definitely works in ultras. As part of your research, I recommend that you re-read the great article about Hellebuyck and the damning accusations he has against the greatest Comrades runnder of all time: Leonid Shvetsov

https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a22000371/the-confessions-of-eddy-hellebuyck/

Also the skill some of the very early runners - there were big 6 day racers even in the late 1800s - are also incredibly impressive. For example, James Albert breaking the 1000km barrier in 6 days is absolutely bonkers. There are also incredible people around the world who have done incredible things in terms of long distance running although there weren't many historical races - for example the marathon monks of mount hiei in Japan, the lungompa runners in Tibet, and some of the Navajo runners to name a fer.

Also, I want to give a big shout-out to Pete Kostelnick. I don't know if he is the GOAT but his run across america was one of the best ultra performances of all time. Over 3000 miles in 42 days insane - plus he ran in hokas the entire way. You should definitely interview him! Not to mention, his run last year from Alaska to the Florida Keys was bonkers - pushing all his food and water in a baby stroller.

I think Matt Carpenter should also be in the consideration for GOAT even though he mainly only raced in the United States. Matt ran in the Olympic trials and completely dominated the Pike's Peek marathon - up and down Pike's Peek, another iconic race - for a long number of years, and he still has the record at the famous Leadville Trail 100 in Colorado.

*What are the hardest course/world records to break in ultra running?

The recent 100km record is probably the hardest to break, because I believe that it has been challenged by the largest number of people.

The 100 mile record is also quite hard to break, although sadly it seems that there is more than some possibility that Oleg Kharitonov's 11:28:03 may have benefitted from PEDs. The American Zach Bitter has been making some good attempts in recent years.

Ultra courses vary so much year to year due to temperature and snow pack that it is really hard to compare times from year to year. That is part of the reason why I think fastest-known-times may be more impressive, and so I would personally go with the Appalachian Trail FKT.

Karl Sabbe's 2016 FKT on the Appalachian Trail of 41 days, 7 hours and 39 minutes may be the standard to beat in terms of the hardest course and best record in the world.

If you include multi-day ultras, Marathon des Sables would be up there. It's 6 days and covers 250K.

For one day, heard good things about Javelina Jundred, including race org.... although, having run at that site, I don't know that I'd describe it as scenic. However, if you want a race that's been around for awhile with good organization both Javelina and Rocky Raccoon have good reputations.

For scenic events, something shorter like Skyline to the Sea is cool to run from mountains to finish at the coast.

Really good post by "sqandrews" above ^

What evidence is there that Oleg Kharitonov's 11:28 for 100-miles is doped?

That being said certainly there is doping in MUT Running (the small amount of testing is a joke!).

We already know guys who were top 10 at UTMB got busted for EPO recently. I'm guessing HGH/testosterone is also abused....

As far as Pikes goes....The Marathon will be more competitive as a "golden trail series race" compared to the Ascent...I believe it was last year already. And Carpenter's record there of 3:16 is way, way better than his Leadville 100 record. Nobody will touch that marathon record...but Rob Krar basically would have beat the Leadville record last year if the course was the same. And I believe Carpenter also never even broke 2:19 for the marathon.

#cleansport

I think for GOAT for men you have to do two divisions mountain and road. I don't see anyone with a valid claim other than Kilian in the mountains. On the road hands down Kouros.

For the women you could go with one category and Trason. No one has dominated road and mountain like she did. Some posters have offered up Camille, she hasn't shown she can run in the mountains. Trason still holds the Leadville record 25 years later.

Everyone hates Hardrock because it is impossible to get in, but IMO still the most beautiful course in the world.

Most prestigious Comrades on the road, UTMB mountain. Everything else mentioned is also rans.

If we are going to allow Pike's Peak I would go with that one being the hardest record to break. It has a long history and seen some quality runners over the years attempt it only to be humbled. Carpenter was a much better MUT runner than ultra runner.

The road/track records while impressive would be much easier for an elite marathoner crossing over to break. It is much less certain on a mountain. If you watch Kilian descend that is a unique special talent which is not a given for a elite road runner. Heck Camille gave herself a concussion at WS on one of the least technical mountain trails you can have. Sure the Kenyans can and do train on trails but until a quality one lines up at UTMB mark me skeptical that descending technical trails isn't a special skill required to do well and not as common as you might think.

As far as doping, lack of any real testing leaves anyone I've mentioned as possible. Some even very likely.

Thanks, Sage. I appreciate your comments. I think you have a shot at getting the 100 -mile record. I hope you nail it!

My apologies to Oleg and for making my earlier comment without sufficient support regarding Oleg. I don't have any specific evidence that Oleg doped, and looking back my comments that there was "more than some possibility that Oleg Kharitonov's 11:28:03 may have benefitted from PEDs" should have been more carefully phrased. I thought I had seen something online and I remember hearing from two different people about their suspicions, but I just looked for a bit again and did not see any strong support. 1999 was the first year our great American hero Lance Armstrong won the tour de france and a large number of PEDs were readily available in Europe.

I actually found that Comrade's starting testing for EPO in 2002, and so Oleg was actually tested for EPO that year when he placed fourth at Comrades. 2002 is also when Oleg set the 100-mile record. Interestingly, at least two samples from that year at Comrades were suspicious, but then were ok on retest.

https://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/sport/comrades-doping-just-a-storm-in-a-pee-cup-514556

But, based on my understanding, testing in the early 2000s was not very good at all. Lance Armstong was also tested many times and never failed, and I am highly doubtful that the earlier EPO tests were very good, and that there were many substances that were not tested for. Also, Comrades started offering a fairly large prize purse early on providing incentive for athletes to possibly cheat.

Kiptum's recent suspension shocked me, even though I should probably not have been shocked. I admit to reading about Kiptum after seeing Ross Tucker's great post:

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/04/we-need-to-talk-about-east-african-runners-and-general-trust-vs-skepticism-in-performances/?doing_wp_cron=1556666715.3671569824218750000000

Ross does a good job of making the point that: "Take nothing away from them, but" and I should not have phrased my earlier comments the way that I did.

Although, Ross also says that: "Any major improvement in performance, with a huge increase in suspicion if that improvement happens more than about three years into the athlete’s career." I don't know all of Oleg's times, but it looks like he ran a reasonable 2:24 marathon at 30, but then afterwards ran a 2:30, 2:27, and then 2:31 before running a 2:17 the year when he also first won Comrades at 34. Oleg had some good results earlier, and there may be a number of reasons for those outstanding results that year or slower results in later years (, but it looks like he got significantly faster in 2002.

http://arrs.auguszt.in/runner/19460

I am almost getting to the point where I think doping should be legal. Doped athletes often may actually end up training harder, part of the benefits of PEDs, and I'll never forget watching Lance's infamous "I'm on my bike, what are you on?" tv ad. I was so sad to hear about sumgong, kiprop, and kiptum not to mention the many others that I may be becoming too suspicious. Not to mention the testing seems so bad that any suspensions seem almost arbitrary, and apart from the validity of the tests, I can't believe how common it appears to be for athletes to receive prior notification in testing as came out in Kiprop's case.

All that said, I was quite impressed with Oleg's daily 40km run for several months last year to protest his runner not getting prize money at Comrades.

http://www.rusbiznews.com/news/n2873.html

Oleg, if you are reading, my apologies to you personally for not being more careful in my wording.

Sage, thanks again for your efforts to promote #cleansport.