He needs to break the American Record. Then there will be no argument. End of discussion.
He needs to break the American Record. Then there will be no argument. End of discussion.
One thing that gets missed is that there have only been THREE mile AR holders since 1965: Ryun, Scott and Webb. Three guys in 51 years. Other than the 1K, pretty hard to find any other event with such a short list of AR holders in 51 years. That's largely a tribute to how high Ryun set the bar in the beginning, and much higher Scott raised it.
3:46.91 is a tall order for anybody, but if Centro is gonna get it, the next few weeks would be the time if he can find a race.
He has both silver and bronze from The Outdoor World Championships., not just the bronze.
gadsdafgda wrote:
I don't understand you guys.
Think of the top milers/1500m runners of all time (same event or close enough for me).
El Guerrouj is probably #1.
Jim Ryun is certainly top 10, probably top 5 if you went by polling. Centro is not.
Google around for any discussion of "Top Mile/1500m runners of all time" -- not just American milers -- and you'll see Jim Ryun mentioned.
Now, do you really think winning an OG gold automatically puts you in the discussion for top 10 all-time or possibly greatest milers of all time? No. First, because there have been a lot of OG golds in the modern era and we don't talk about all of them, and second, because there have been a couple of guys with more modest records who won the OG (Cacho, Vasala, Makhloufi). Sure, Centro has won some other stuff too, but I mean Cacho won Gold and Silver in back-to-back Olympics and I bet most of you didn't even know that, I'd forgotten it until I googled it just now.
In conclusion, my point is that the fact that Jim Ryun is considered one of the best *milers* of all time, and Centro is not, means that Jim Ryun must be the better (IMO best) *American* miler of all time until people start talking about Centro on those terms.
I thought this thread was asking about the best AMERICAN miler, so why are you writing about Cacho, Vasala, and McGoofy?
Hey now wrote:
Lol @ "lucky Clayton didn't decide to go for it"
Clayton didn't make it to the Olympic Trials and the guy says he's better than the Olympic Champ...tough crowd
Check your facts, genius.
Murphy did qualify for the OTs in the 1500m. He just decided not to run. He was like a few hundredths off the Olympic qualifying time which he could have always gone for in the rounds and then likely snagged a place on the team in the final.
Dehydrated wrote:
Sourced wrote:That is a good question and hard to answer due to Ovett's quality over 800m. Obviously we are talking about mile/1500 but it is hard to discount what he did at 800.
I'd say they are quite close, with Ovett obviously being considerably faster over a mile, a bit slower in the 1500 and a OG bronze (although the US wasn't at that Olympics, so he may not have that if the US is there).
I understand that Ryun was head and shoulders better and was absolutely breaking ground and ceilings in running, but the WR argument does not do it for me. Times are times, and you can adjust them as you see fit for tracks/shoes (Except do not trust Ventolin because then we have JR with a 3:20 PB). Even if you are rather liberal with Ryun's times and say 3:28 and 3:44, his (relative) lack of longevity bothers me.
Ryun has always been one of my idols and don't blame you for saying he is the US GOAT.
HOWEVER, I simply cannot agree that Webb's resume is better than Centro's. Winning one DL (or Golden League, whatever it was called) race doesn't mean much to me. The French 800m man won 2 DL races this year- does anyone care now that Murhpy beat him at the OG??
I think Centrowitz ran brilliantly to get gold in Rio and is definitely in the discussion to US all time top 1500/miler guy, but his record isn't close to Ovett's, as you suggest.
Ovett won Olympic bronze, beaten by Coe's tremendous kick and Straub's probable doping regime. The Americans being there wouldn't have changed that result.
But he did break WRs at both 1500 and mile, 2 apiece, and was unbeaten over both distances for 45 races and almost 4 seasons. I would be surprised if Centro has won half of his races on the European circuit.
Ovett was also ranked world no. 1 for 3 years and runner up 2 or 3 times. That's 6 seasons where he was ranked higher than Centrowitz's best ranking to date. Of course that might change,
There weren't bi annual world champs in Ovett's day, but he did win 2 World Cup golds against the best on offer at the time, and a European gold.
His accumulated pb'd at 1500 and 1 mile are better than Centro's, and he was competing 35 years ago at his best.
In fact I'd have to put Ovett above Ryun too. He was winning races and medals over a longer period than Ryun.
Centrowitz needs at least 1 No. 1 ranking and a couple of US records to reach Ryun's position. But I bet he's not too bothered, as he has the single most important accolade in any athlete's career.
Why are you putting Ovett above Ryun? This thread is about AMERICAN milers, not Brits.
Kamwarrior wrote:
gadsdafgda wrote:I don't understand you guys.
Think of the top milers/1500m runners of all time (same event or close enough for me).
El Guerrouj is probably #1.
Jim Ryun is certainly top 10, probably top 5 if you went by polling. Centro is not.
Google around for any discussion of "Top Mile/1500m runners of all time" -- not just American milers -- and you'll see Jim Ryun mentioned.
Now, do you really think winning an OG gold automatically puts you in the discussion for top 10 all-time or possibly greatest milers of all time? No. First, because there have been a lot of OG golds in the modern era and we don't talk about all of them, and second, because there have been a couple of guys with more modest records who won the OG (Cacho, Vasala, Makhloufi). Sure, Centro has won some other stuff too, but I mean Cacho won Gold and Silver in back-to-back Olympics and I bet most of you didn't even know that, I'd forgotten it until I googled it just now.
In conclusion, my point is that the fact that Jim Ryun is considered one of the best *milers* of all time, and Centro is not, means that Jim Ryun must be the better (IMO best) *American* miler of all time until people start talking about Centro on those terms.
Fermin Cacho has the resume of one of the greats of all time. He ran 3:28.95 and held the European record until Farah nipped it and has an Olympic gold and silver. Centro is not Cacho yet.
Cacho NOT AMERICAN!
captainwildcat wrote:
Chumpeast buster wrote:I'm going to throw even more gas on this fire and say Centrowitz isn't even the best American at 1500 this year. That would be Clayton Murphy. Yeah I said it. Murphy beat him on the kick right before the Olympics and was undefeated at the 1500m this year. I'd say Centrowitz got lucky he didn't decide to go for it at the trials.
The Clayton Murphy who did not even qualify for the US Olympic trials in the 1500? The Clayton Murphy who mostly won 1500s against college kids (Olympic Gold >>>NCAA champ), yes Murphy outkicked Centro in a 1000m race that was a tune up for both athletes, but 1000m is much closer to Murphy's event the 800m than it is to Centro's. Also, the guy who got second to Centro in the 1500 beat Murphy in the 800.
Uh, el wrongo. Murphy met the entry standards for the Trials; he just didn't have the OLYMPIC GAMES standard, which he could quite possibly have attained during in the Trials final, the way it happened to transpire this year.
I agree. If Centro gets another gold, a couple of diamond league victories, and breaks 330 and 350, I would give him the title. Im not taking anything away from his gold medal, but Bernards silver and Ryun,s silver are pretty damn impressive. Kiprop had an off day, where as lagat and Ryun races el g and keino respectively at full strength. Matt Centro could very well take the title but he needs to get that time down, and show he can win in a race faster than 3:50, to be frank.
The men's 1500 was a complete set-up! Why does Kiprop run up to Centro's shoulder and then stop accelerating? For someone who could have easily gone around him any other time - being a 3:27 guy why in the hell does he back off? Centro doesn't pick up the pace at that point either; he simply maintains the speed he held on the backstretch. This doesn't make any sense whatsoever? Remember the Diamond League race where he just messes with the field????? He had way way more left in the tank! Also, Look at Taoufik Makhloufi 'face' in the end - he isn't even breathing - deliberate bored expression. He was totally 'short chopping' his steps as he came around the bend deliberately and not accelerating past Centro - watch it again! The guy in any other race would not have done so. Come on, '3:50' is a walk in the park for those guys! I think their 'A' samples were positive and they were warned not to 'dominate', otherwise the whistle would be blown and 'Diamond League' money in jeopardy. Hundreds of thousands of Euros are now exchanged at these 'meets' - more drug accusations will bring the whole house of cards down! Centro ran what he was capable of and probably would have medaled anyway, but I'm telling you he was not directly challenged by either Kiprop or Makhloufi intensionally! This smells and if you watch the race closely and get over this false hysteria you'll clearly see that both these guys 'pulled their punches' in the end!
Hey now wrote:
Lol @ "lucky Clayton didn't decide to go for it"
Clayton didn't make it to the Olympic Trials and the guy says he's better than the Olympic Champ...tough crowd
Clayton Murphy would have been more prepared than anyone else in that field to win off a slow pace with a big kick. He won 3 tactical championship 1500m races this year at his conference, NCAA indoors,and outdoors. Plus the 1000m in which he beat Centrowitz. Yes Mak beat him in the 800m off a very fast race and lost to Centrowitz. However Centrowitz lost to Mak off a faster pace at the last Olympics.
Centro Nation wrote:
Uh, el wrongo. Murphy met the entry standards for the Trials; he just didn't have the OLYMPIC GAMES standard, which he could quite possibly have attained during in the Trials final, the way it happened to transpire this year.
Fair enough, Murphy could have run in the trials. However as the trials played out the three guys who DID make the 1500m team all ran under the Olympic standard which Murphy did not have (with Centro setting an Olympic trials record in the process). So to make the 1500m team he would've had to run a PR. I know he PR'd in the 800 a couple of times at the Olympics, but that does not mean he could've done the same at the trials in a different event.
To be the man, you have to beat the man. Take Alan Webb's American Record in the mile and you will become the man. Plain and simple.
So what, we do know when they raced head to head Centrowitz LOST to Murphy. C'mon you want to make a case for Centro as the best U.S. miler based on him winning the Olympics off the slowest race since 1932 via kick and yet he lost on the kick to another American just before the Olympics.
Chumpeast buster wrote:
So what, we do know when they raced head to head Centrowitz LOST to Murphy. C'mon you want to make a case for Centro as the best U.S. miler based on him winning the Olympics off the slowest race since 1932 via kick and yet he lost on the kick to another American just before the Olympics.
Quit being dumb. Murphy beat Centro In a race that was not a mile or 1500. How many mile or 1500 races has Centro lost to americans this year?
Murphy may well end up being the greatest of all time, but right now Centro is clearly a far superior 'miler'
Kamwarrior wrote:
Fermin Cacho has the resume of one of the greats of all time. He ran 3:28.95 and held the European record until Farah nipped it and has an Olympic gold and silver. Centro is not Cacho yet.
You're joking, right? Cacho was a mega doper.
Amazing that he still closed in 50.6 as he looked over his shoulder a dozen times and slowed up the last 20+ meters. Realistically, could have been a mid-49's final lap
Chumpeast buster wrote:
You want to make a case for Centro as the best U.S. miler based on him winning the Olympics
Also, to be clear I don't think Centro is the best US miler ever, at least not yet. If you look at my original question I asked what ELSE he needed to do to have that title.
At this point in time I would still have Ryun at the top, with Lagat, Scott, and Centro behind in no particular order. A few sub 3:30 1500s or a 3:47 mile and Centro takes over the #2 spot by himself especially if he actually wins a few of those races. Another global title or a couple of world #1 rankings or a diamond league championship along with a couple of very fast times and he could overtake Ryun.
Problem with centro getting the mile AR is I don't think he has the foot speed for it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he's run sub 1:45 once!??
Alan Webb had that 1:43 under his belt the same yr her broke the AR In the mile and ran 3:30. If centro has a 1:43-44 in him then he could have a shot at the AR. If not at the least break 3:30 in the 1500
How many medals has the us won in world championships or the Olympics? Centro has 4, 2 of those are gold. So our most decorated championship runner is not our best?
Factchecker wrote:
How many medals has the us won in world championships or the Olympics? Centro has 4, 2 of those are gold. So our most decorated championship runner is not our best?
Does most decorated necessarily = best?
Does fastest times necessarily = best?
Does longevity at the top level = best?
Does impact on the sport have a value we can quantify?
It seems like most on this thread thinks that there is some combination of all of the above. Some even think to be the greatest someone must be the best at each catagory (this is ridiculous because if more than one person is at the top of these catagories then no one is the best)