Ben L Wrong wrote:
Camille Lacourt on doping in swimming
He said swimming is becoming as tainted as athletics, “with two or three doped in each final."
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/rio-2016-sun-yang-pisses-purple-camille-lacourt-olympic-gold-medallist-drug-cheat-a7180556.html
I find it hard to believe that it is as tainted as athletics.
Spitz wrote:
Richeter wrote:No more hurdles, steeple, triple jump, pole vault. Combine throwing events. Choose whatever implement with any configuration that has a fixed weight to throw.
Apples and oranges, my friend.
In track, a course is established and each athlete travels the course as fast as they can. There are almost no restrictions on how you move through the course (except restrictions designed to maintain the integrity of the course, i.e. you can't push hurdles over or run around them).
In throws, you are given an implement, how you throw it is almost entirely your business.
In swimming, in 3/4 of the events you have arbitrary limitations on how you move yourself from one end to the other.
400m is to 400H as pool swimming is to open-water swimming, NOT as freestyle is to backstroke.
No.
The throws are most like the different strokes in swimming. The goal is is to throw the implement as far as one can. There are different implements. I agree with the other poster. Choose one standard implement and then throw it as far as you can.
Gotta agree having long jump and triple jump is redundant.
Pole vault is stupid.
400m and 400H / 100m / 110H is the same event like backstroke and freestyle in swimming. You just have to use a different technique to get from point A to point B. Steeple/5000 - same thing. Think about how stupid of an event the steeple is. The motto should be "no fast enough for the 1500 or 5000? Try me,"
I agree with the decathlon. When I was a kid I thought that this was the ultimate t&f event. I guess I bought into the media hype every four years. Then when I started competing I found out that it was the land of the misfit athletes who were not particularly good an an event.
I could also do away with the 100 or 200. For the most part they are the same event.
So, yeah. Both sports could eliminate a lot of events.
The problem with a lot of sports in the Olympics is they are First World money sports. Swimming is one of them. There is no competition from the poorest 2/3 of the world. Equestrian and many others fall into this boat.
Track and Soccer are the two most competitive sports because every country participates in them and many poor people excel.
Trampolining? Really? Who does it?
choppy seas wrote:
HardLoper wrote:Breaststroke is supposed to be more relaxing if you can do it right
The channel swimmers and triathletes in open water all use front crawl. Backstroke in choppy seas would be nerve racking. You have limited forward view. Breaststroke, you'd be swallowing water and is too slow. front crawl is the best stroke.
This is actually a legitimate question. Breaststroke, done at a slower pace, saves tons of energy and can be done for a very long period of time. Plus, as noted by the OP, you can see much better. Backstroke is, as said above, much easier to breathe. Double arm backstroke, not an official stroke but sometimes used by coaches in drills, could also be considered one of the easier strokes to perform over a long period of time. Simply put, different strokes have different advantages. Take it from a former collegiate swimmer.
Breaststroke, done at a slower pace, saves tons of energy and can be done for a very long period of time. Plus, as noted by the OP, you can see much better. Backstroke is, as said above, much easier to breathe. Double arm backstroke, not an official stroke but sometimes used by coaches in drills, could also be considered one of the easier strokes to perform over a long period of time. Simply put, different strokes have different advantages. Take it from a former collegiate swimmer.
The problem is that none of these events is contested under these conditions. I would probably watch and respect a marathon-like event where they did the backstroke or breaststroke. But doing either of these over 100 or 200 meters makes no sense. It's like walking or skipping a 400 meter race. There are advantages to both walking and skipping -- just not when you need to travel 400 meters as fast as possible.
Tracksmastery wrote:
To show you how unadvanced swimming is compared to other sports. You think that swimming coaches would teach swimmers to swim with their head out of the water so they could take more breathes to maximize aerobic capacity. You see them hold their breath all the time. It's simply physiology that the higher the oxygen uptake the faster they could go.
It's also simple physics that holding your head out of the water the entire time slows you down. Freestyle is swum mostly on one's side. The rotation of the shoulders and hips creates the drive necessary to go faster. Furthermore, swimming straight on with no rotation hinders a swimmer from a hydrodynamic perspective. It's like comparing the body of a barge vs. a speedboat...speedboats will always win. You are a moron.
Raysism wrote:
Breaststroke, done at a slower pace, saves tons of energy and can be done for a very long period of time. Plus, as noted by the OP, you can see much better. Backstroke is, as said above, much easier to breathe. Double arm backstroke, not an official stroke but sometimes used by coaches in drills, could also be considered one of the easier strokes to perform over a long period of time. Simply put, different strokes have different advantages. Take it from a former collegiate swimmer.The problem is that none of these events is contested under these conditions. I would probably watch and respect a marathon-like event where they did the backstroke or breaststroke. But doing either of these over 100 or 200 meters makes no sense. It's like walking or skipping a 400 meter race. There are advantages to both walking and skipping -- just not when you need to travel 400 meters as fast as possible.
There is a marathon like event where they swim the freestyle. It's called open water swimming, or Olympic Marathon Swimming (it's a 10k). The advantages of breaststroke over freestyle would have to be played out over 24-48 hours, not a marathon like race. Over 2-3 hours freestyle wins every time.
Track has plenty of events, like hurdles and steeplechase, that have already been discussed. However, one main point that hasn't been discussed is that there really is only one way to run. You can't really create an event where everyone has to run with fully extended legs the whole time. It would create injuries and be really stupid to watch. Swimming is just simply different. The strokes make it more fun. And don't tell me that you can dominate multiple strokes. Phelps dominates two similar strokes, butterfly and freestyle, and his only other event is the IM (a combination of all 4). He would get crushed in the backstroke and especially the breaststroke events.
IT Expert wrote:
Only one competition has running and swimming together in the same race: triathlon. Triathon is NEVER won on the swim because basically anyone who is good enough to compete can be taught to swim at a high level. Not so much the run, though, where the participants do in fact show more range.
This is a stupid argument.
Olympic triathlon swim: 17-18 minutes
Olympic triathlon bike: 58-60 minutes
Olympic triathlon run: 29-32 minutes
Simply put, you have more time to make up ground in the other two events. Also, most people don't race the first leg of any endurance event to their full potential. It's called pacing oneself. The bike is really where the athletes make up the most ground.
yourealldumb wrote:
However, one main point that hasn't been discussed is that there really is only one way to run. You can't really create an event where everyone has to run with fully extended legs the whole time. It would create injuries and be really stupid to watch.
This is really flawed reasoning. There are plenty of ways to propel one's self forward on land (skipping, walking, hopping, crawling, backwards running). I could just as easily tell you "there really is only one way to swim the crawl." I could create many, many additional track events, and I'm sure we could even create more swimming events.
yourealldumb wrote:
The strokes make it more fun.
This I agree with. Swimming in an 8-lane pool is boring as all hell, both to watch and to do. I've been there. And the variety of strokes definitely help pass the time and create different styles of competition. We're just pointing out that, as fun as it may be, maybe we shouldn't be giving medals to people who can swim upside down and backwards.
Raysism wrote:
yourealldumb wrote:However, one main point that hasn't been discussed is that there really is only one way to run. You can't really create an event where everyone has to run with fully extended legs the whole time. It would create injuries and be really stupid to watch.
This is really flawed reasoning. There are plenty of ways to propel one's self forward on land (skipping, walking, hopping, crawling, backwards running). I could just as easily tell you "there really is only one way to swim the crawl." I could create many, many additional track events, and I'm sure we could even create more swimming events.
yourealldumb wrote:
The strokes make it more fun.
This I agree with. Swimming in an 8-lane pool is boring as all hell, both to watch and to do. I've been there. And the variety of strokes definitely help pass the time and create different styles of competition. We're just pointing out that, as fun as it may be, maybe we shouldn't be giving medals to people who can swim upside down and backwards.
Do you have a college degree?
Raysism wrote:
yourealldumb wrote:However, one main point that hasn't been discussed is that there really is only one way to run. You can't really create an event where everyone has to run with fully extended legs the whole time. It would create injuries and be really stupid to watch.
This is really flawed reasoning. There are plenty of ways to propel one's self forward on land (skipping, walking, hopping, crawling, backwards running). I could just as easily tell you "there really is only one way to swim the crawl." I could create many, many additional track events, and I'm sure we could even create more swimming events.
yourealldumb wrote:
The strokes make it more fun.
This I agree with. Swimming in an 8-lane pool is boring as all hell, both to watch and to do. I've been there. And the variety of strokes definitely help pass the time and create different styles of competition. We're just pointing out that, as fun as it may be, maybe we shouldn't be giving medals to people who can swim upside down and backwards.
No, your reasoning is flawed. Propelling one's self forward on land isn't running. We are discussing running. You can run with both legs straight, but I think we agree this would be an awful thing to watch.
Yes, we could create more swimming events, just like we could create additional track events. However, both sports have plenty already. If you count the field events and you count each sex's event individually, Athletics has 47 events while swimming has 34. Break it down however you want it, but both sports have plenty of events. There is a reason why we don't watch the double armed backstroke at the Olympics...
yourealldumb wrote:
Raysism wrote:This is really flawed reasoning. There are plenty of ways to propel one's self forward on land (skipping, walking, hopping, crawling, backwards running). I could just as easily tell you "there really is only one way to swim the crawl." I could create many, many additional track events, and I'm sure we could even create more swimming events.
This I agree with. Swimming in an 8-lane pool is boring as all hell, both to watch and to do. I've been there. And the variety of strokes definitely help pass the time and create different styles of competition. We're just pointing out that, as fun as it may be, maybe we shouldn't be giving medals to people who can swim upside down and backwards.
No, your reasoning is flawed. Propelling one's self forward on land isn't running. We are discussing running. You can run with both legs straight, but I think we agree this would be an awful thing to watch.
Yes, we could create more swimming events, just like we could create additional track events. However, both sports have plenty already. If you count the field events and you count each sex's event individually, Athletics has 47 events while swimming has 34. Break it down however you want it, but both sports have plenty of events. There is a reason why we don't watch the double armed backstroke at the Olympics...
If you count field events then you need to include diving and synchronised swimming too
yourealldumb wrote:
No, your reasoning is flawed. Propelling one's self forward on land isn't running. We are discussing running. You can run with both legs straight, but I think we agree this would be an awful thing to watch....
You're completely assuming away the argument. Track is not called "Running", and there is no requirement in track that the competitor "run". All track events are essentially the swimming equivalent of "freestyle" -- whatever gets you to the finish line fastest is allowable.
Of course, the fastest way to get to the finish line in track is running....but the same applies to swimming! There are several ways to travel forward in water, but only the crawl is the fastest way.
(Also, there are plenty of different ways to run -- including backwards running and sideways running.)
Fine, whatever. Include them. My point is that each sport has an arbitrary and incredibly high number of events.
Raysism wrote:
yourealldumb wrote:No, your reasoning is flawed. Propelling one's self forward on land isn't running. We are discussing running. You can run with both legs straight, but I think we agree this would be an awful thing to watch....
You're completely assuming away the argument. Track is not called "Running", and there is no requirement in track that the competitor "run". All track events are essentially the swimming equivalent of "freestyle" -- whatever gets you to the finish line fastest is allowable.
Of course, the fastest way to get to the finish line in track is running....but the same applies to swimming! There are several ways to travel forward in water, but only the crawl is the fastest way.
(Also, there are plenty of different ways to run -- including backwards running and sideways running.)
I think it comes down to people's desire to compete, style, and watchability. Swimming is a graceful sport, when done properly. The various strokes are beautiful to watch, just like it's amazing to watch a hurdler cruise over the hurdles. I'm not sure anyone would want to watch or compete in backwards or sideways running.
Also, please stop calling it the crawl. It's freestyle, meaning any stroke is acceptable. Just gotta choose whichever gets you there the fastest ;)
Honestly, this whole thread is based on a stupid argument. If one person could dominate all the swimming strokes across all the distances then it would be a valid argument. But that can never and will never happen. There are too many strokes to train for and too many distances to swim.
Swim distances in the freestyle include the 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, and the 1500, which are essentially the equivalents of the 200, 400, 800, 1500, and 5000. Show me a swimmer that can win across all of those distances in JUST the freestyle and then I will agree with the premise of this thread.
It's amazing how many runners are butt hurt that swimmers actually get some attention during the first week of the game.
If I don't like something, I don't watch it. I don't spend hours telling other people why they shouldn't like it...
Mr. Obvious wrote:
It's amazing how many runners are butt hurt that swimmers actually get some attention during the first week of the game.
If I don't like something, I don't watch it. I don't spend hours telling other people why they shouldn't like it...
^^This. It's called ego hurt.
yourealldumb wrote:
Also, please stop calling it the crawl. It's freestyle, meaning any stroke is acceptable. Just gotta choose whichever gets you there the fastest ;)
The crawl (or forward crawl or front crawl) is the name of the stroke being used in freestyle events. I was referring to the stroke itself, not the event.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
It's amazing how many runners are butt hurt that swimmers actually get some attention during the first week of the game.
If I don't like something, I don't watch it. I don't spend hours telling other people why they shouldn't like it...
So, for example, if there was an LRC thread that you didn't like, instead of telling everyone how dumb it was, you just wouldn't read it.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
We see these same stupid arguments at every Olympics about swimming. It is a different sport than Track and Field. It has different requirements and parameters than Track and Field. I just get really tired of it.
If you don't like swimming, don't watch it. I'm not telling you that you have to like it.
Honestly I appreciate both swimming and track and field. I recognize that there are different requirements in each and the medals in swimming are different than the medals in track and field. It doesn't mean swimming is a joke. It just means it is different. I just don't see how people can't get that. (Well, mostly they just don't want to get it).
Thanks, good post!
Perhaps boxers should be angry at track & filed athletes for not having to compete in one weight class.