Antonio,
Send what you like, I look forward to viewing it. Use the link "send viewer comment" for my email address.
Thanks,
Bob
Antonio,
Send what you like, I look forward to viewing it. Use the link "send viewer comment" for my email address.
Thanks,
Bob
Antonio,
Thank you very much. I've been interested in van Aaken for decades but most of what I've seen about his ideas has been either theoretical or applied to marathoners, many of them women. It's great to see these ideas applied to a guy who ran shorter distances.
Good stuff, but why is the 3,000m so slow in comparison to the 1500m? Was it a cross country race or a steeplechase?
1500m RACE. In Malmo – 1st in 3:42.0
SAT – 3000m RACE in 8:17.5
Just one question
Of course that´s not a cross country race and less a steeple ! Just a flat 3000m track win !
Do you realise what you are asking "If that´s a steeple win ?" In 1962 - the date of that Norporth schedule the steeple world record that´s still 8:30.4 ! And you ask if that´s a steeple run...
8' 30" 4 Zdzislaw Kryszkowiak, POL, 26 Jun 1961, Walcz.
Antonio,
that was an awful lot of foreplay building up to the big moment...
Thanks for posting the training (finally!) ;-)
Okay... so, can you answer the question? Why is the 3,000m so slow in comparison to the 1500m? Or maybe you think it's good that a 3.42 guy can only run 8.17?
On the first page of this thread I mentioned Meinrad Nägele who was influenced by van Aaken's methods. I found a photo of him (wearing beret) running with Dr. Van Aaken.
I the schedule from the van Aaken papers i don´t know what are tye reasons for a 8:17. But if you think that´s 20 years old guy that is 1500m specialist in that time and later (in 1968 olymoics he still did compete in 1500m) and as i said earlier if you think that not all runs are PB´s that´s not "so slow" 8:17 relate to 3:42.
Once i did ask to van Aaken "what´s Norporth 1000m PB ? He replies me: "He never did 10000m in competition."
But why if you are a coach that prescribes endurance and volume training ? and he replies me "Norpoth like to run most middle distance runs and he never get motivation to run longer than 5000m in track runs".
Oh...this thread is about Van Aaken, I thought it was about Van Halen. My bad.
Norporth – second part
1964
01.09 – 18km easy + 2x1200m/3:25 + 1X500m/1:12
02.09 – 9.6kilos (8laps) in 40min
03.09 – rest day
04.09 – 5000m warmup + 2X2400m outdoor run (2 laps of 1200m)/8:44/8;27 Rec= 5 to 10 minutes.
05.09 – rest day
06.09 – rest day
07.09 – 15kilos (12 laps)
08.09 - 15kilos (12 laps)
09.09 - 15kilos (12 laps)
10.09 – travel to Cologne. rest day
11.09 – 5000m run in Cologne – 13:58 win over the Polish runner Boguszewich
12.09 – travel back
13.09 – 50min easy run
14.09 - 50min easy run
15.09 - 50min easy run
16.09 – rest day
17.09 - 50min easy run
18.09 - 50min easy run
19.09 – rest day
20.09 - 50min easy run
21.09 – rest day
22.09 - 50min easy run
23.09 - 50min easy run«
24.09 - 50min easy run
25.09 – 7200m easy run (6 laps in 30min) + 2X500m/75sec Rec=5minutes pause
26.09 – rest day
27.09 – warmup + 1500m tempo run in 3:52
28.09 – rest day
29.09 – 18 kilos easy run
30.09 15kilos=That´s 12 circuit laps in crescendum (negative split) from easy run to tempo pace in 55:48 total duration (1st - slower lap in 4:55; last – faster one in 3:58)
01.10 – 45min run
02.10 – Travel to Toquio
03.10 – X
04.10 – 45min as 1min fast-1min slow
05.10 – 20 kilos easy run with short rest recover periods
06.10 – 20 kilos easy run with short rest recover periods
07.10 – 4 kilos easy +6000m with runners Lutz Philipp and Leizrich
08.10 – 6kilos medium run + 1000m track 5000m pace tempo + 5X80-100meters strides + 4000m cooldown
09.10 – 16kilos =8kilos easy and last 8kilos in negative split
10.10 – In Toquio stadium – warmup + 5X2000m/7:06/7:20/7:00/6:23/6:05 – with 62 sec last lap set. Rec=400m walking + 2000m cooldown
11.10 – 4X2000m warmup up with 400m walk + 10X400m/63.5 Rec=400m walk+2000m cooldown
12.10 – 2000m easy run + 3X1000m/2:41 – 2:41 – 2:39 Rec=several minutes
13:10 - 40m easy run
14.10 – short easy run
15.10 - 5kilos easy
16.10 – warmup + 5000m (heat ?) in 14:11
17.10 – very easy run
18.10 – 5000m Toquio – warmup +Silver medal
1964 TOQUIO 5000m final
1 Bob Schul, USA 13,48,8
2 Harald Norpoth FRG 13,49,6
3 Bill Dellinger USA 13,49,8
4 Michel Jazy FRA 13,49,8
5 Kipchoge Keino KEN 13,50,4
6 Bill Baillie NZL 13,51,0
7 Nikolay Dutov URS 13,53,8
8 Thor Helland NOR 13,57,0
thank you, mr. cabral... do you have any info on his training during non-racing phases???
In the June 1976 issue of Track Technique Van Aaken advocated the following:
1) 12 to 30mi. runs through forests or on level roads with or without walking breaks.
2) Runs of 6 to 9mi. through forests followed by 3 by 500M at the racing speed on the track, e.g., a 5000 meter runner who can cover 1500 meters in 3:42 may run 500 meters in 74 with three minutes jogging or walking recoveries
3) 5mi. warmup, followed by 15X 700M at 3000M racing speed with 100M walking recoveries, or 10X 800M, or 10X 1000M (The 1000M not faster than 10,000 pace).4) In forest or on the track 6 to 9mi. with slight accelerations over 80 to 200M with jogging recoveries of the same distance.5) 800M runners: warmup over 10,000M, followed by 4-8X 200M at a speed seven second slower than the average of their best performances.The training ration of endurance distance in relation to tempo distance is 20:1. I also read somewhere that he used 50M sprints which he adopted from Lydiard since no serious oxygen debt can be developed. However this was only used as sharpening.
XC Junkie
I think that all that you mentioin that´s right about van Aaken. Simply you need to understand that are mere examples to express his training philosophy- and you or anyone that try to train according vann Aaken principles you may use youir creativeness and imagination and train for your individual needs. Ex: if you take a look to Norporth training you will be surprise why van Aaken did train him a bit diferent than van Aaken train stereotypes/standards that you read in the van Aaken interviews or litterature.
Remebember that principles are the base, but each case that´s an individual case and need a particular/individualized treatment.
Van Aaken he was an outsider according to that times, but he did some points i consider interstings:
1/endurance – easy runs and oxygen uptake are the main issue in middle and distant runs. In this point is is misunderstood a lot. While he prescribes slow runs, he also says the interest to train in intensity, but fundamentalists they simply peak LSD – Long Slow Distance to the extreme (hours and hours spent in daily long runs) and they have forget quality training. But if you read Norporth schedule you will understand that “LSD – all the way long” that´s false. If you take a look to modern schedules of top class runner´s you will see that in most of the cases the quality training that´s in that 1:10 to 1:20 that van Aaken prescribes.
2/He doesn´t believe in the german classic interval training – that with fast pace and incomplete recover. Van Aaken set recover that´s quite complete and longer recover and individual as well and recover time duration if that´s are quite complete that´s quite irrelevant in the training workout designs.
3/Besides that easy runs - longer in distance/duration that are the “must” we shalln´t overtrain. Thus the recover days, and run “while you are able to talk” and you may finish the run “with some hungry to keep on running”: That´s like in eating – you may eat up the way you end the meal with some little hungry indeed.
4/Despite in training volume direction - he is a minimalist – that means a maximum profit (benefit) with a minimum of effort. The training key that´s not intensity or volume, but both together in correct percents.
5/He doesn´t believe in very hard training modulation – heavy volume and intensity followed by a sensible/dramatic taper period. He believes in steady progressive training. The same for the micro cycles (week cycles). He believes in doing a little of each training zone almost everyday – in that percents. 1:10 to 1:20 aerobic runs : tempo runs and a bit of speed almost everyday. That´s true that he prescribes 5-10Xshort strides (60m top 80m) with complete recover almost everyday.
6/He believes in the need for recover. Extra-little stops even for easy long runs and days off are a constant in their schedules. He says that to stop one day from times to times that´s find, to stop for 2 days that´s not so find, but more than 2 days that´s wrong since the shape goes down.
7/The need for recover after a race is also express in a formula: 1 day recover for each kilo race. Ex: an hard half marathon needs 21 days of regenerative runs mainly.
The one point that I disagree, is that of physiology concepts – or training for the physiology. Their train concepts for a “larger heart and capillarity” and also for “more oxygen uptake”. In my opinion that´s a quite incomplete concept. Despite cardio-vascular systems are in the front line, since the training is an overcompensation that affects all body and mind as a whole and consequently all body systems that are interesting in a whole training perspective, ex: a few times you are improving just by the fact that BY TRAINING you got a better running economy (less oxygen use in the same pace intensities) and not because you got a better oxygen uptake or a larger heart.
Hello, 12/27/06
Let\'s face it, most world class marathoners and even distance runners run high mileage except maybe Steve Jones the former world record holder for the marathon. The one thing I like about Van Aaken\'s method is when I\'m out of shape it gets me motivated. Something noticed was in the book by Tim Noaks the \"Lore of Running\", he doesn\'t even mention Van Aaken but he mentions Lydiard. Actually the person first used high mileage was a ultra runner, Alfred Newman in the 1920s. That\'s from the book by Tim Noaks.
Chuck Kennell
I just re-read Van Aaken's book for about the 5th time in 30 years of running. I always improve after I've read it. Truly a great man. I have a friend who followed his training advice and in 2 years improved his 10K time from 35:00 to 32:00. For some reason, I never end up that patient - but I should.
What a great thread! What he had to say about weight and endurance truly seems to be absolutely true today.
"Run slowly, run daily, drink moderately, and don't eat like a pig."
