GoldenMiles wrote:
I see differing opinions about if Paris is a faster course than Berlin/Chicqgo/London or not. I wonder which it is. Anyone ran it?
I ran Berlin and Paris. Berlin, while not absolutely flat, is much easier than Paris. Look at the profile of both on the web. Paris is a tourist course with very little regard to performance. And note that the Paris profile does not even show the short ups and downs below the bridges along the Seine river somewhere around the 30th km.
grox wrote:
Possibly. The competition was weaker in these eras. Where were the runners from the rift then? On the other hand, in their favour, the training methodology and the tracks were probably worse. But these two points do not really apply when comparing Kenenisa and Haile.
Yes. You are ignoring my main point: the facts are not what we debate. We are debating the value of the performances. There is no unique, scientific way of telling. Hence the endless debate.
While this is very reasonable, this line of reasoning leads to rewarding Haile for focussing on more distances. At everything that Kenenisa has seriously focused on, he has been above everyone else.
That's funny. In general, one has to ask people to reread what one wrote. Here, I must ask you to reread yourself.
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6052841&page=6#ixzz3Fvj0OuEZYou got tired at the end of my post and didn't want to think about it?
The listet athletes are possibly mediocre athletes to you? I don't know what to respond to something like that.
And for sure the same points also apply when comparing Gebrselassie and Bekele. The level of performances have improved enormously from the point Gebrselassie started his international career and when Bekele started his one (btw, what do you think, who the main initiator for this development was?). And in the Marathon? When Gebrselassie did his debut in 2002, the WR was 2:05:42; when Bekele did his, the WR was 2:03:23. No difference?
So, you are saying you need a formula to decide which PBs (the combination of them) are of higher quality. Really? Astonishing. I have thought about such questions many times over the last years, but I didn't have a good solution so far. Something like adding the percentages behind the WR isn't enough in my opinion, since it doesn't pay attention to many aspects. But to decide this case, we really don't need a formula. It's obvious.
Very usual for a discussion on letsrun: it's obvious (also to you) that it's correct what I have written, but now you change the subject: "At everything that Kenenisa has seriously focused on, he has been above everyone else."
Yeah. For sure Gebrselassie was focused on running the 3000m, Bekele not. Same for the 1500m. And all the other achievements of Gebrselassie. If Bekele just had focused on them, than... Very convincingly.
I don't have to reread my posts; I know what I have written. I have never written anything like Bekele has done more in less time. The main reason that I havn't written something like that: because it's not true. Bekele has won more titles, Gebrselassie has set more records.
Tired? What about answering my question? With the obvious truth that Gebrselassie was the best in almost everything, you try to argue that he is behind Bekele. That's what I don't understand.
I don't really want to jump into a "who's better -- Geb or Bekele debate", but this particular quote, has me scratching my head.Are you honestly comparing Geb's 1500m indoor title to Bekele's cross-country wins, claiming that the 1500m + marathon is MORE impressive than the cross-country wins?Indoor 1500m:- who cares about indoor? Most athletes don't care enough to compete. Did Bekele try and fail?- Geb's PBs are 3:31.76 (i) and 3:33.73 (o). Bekele ran 3:32.35 (o).- It doesn't seem to me an "impressive" difference.Regarding 5000m/10000m- Geb set world records. Bekele improved both. Also not an "impressive" difference but any balance is in Bekele's favor.Regarding marathon:- Geb set two world records.- Bekele ran a great debut (better than Geb's debut), about 1 minute slower than Geb's PB. He's not done yet.Regarding cross-country:- Bekele won the double 5 years in a row, in the toughest race in the world.- Geb? One silver as a junior, one bronze as a senior, and other finishes: 8th, 7th, 4th and 5th. Not bad, better than most, but not as impressive as 11 first places as a senior, plus a 1st and 2nd as a junior.I guess different things impress different people, but I struggle to see how anyone can credibly argue that Geb's 1500m indoor, and two marathon world records, trumps Bekele's cross-country victories, and marathon debut.
fan of US distance running wrote:
...
Being WR holder at the aforementioned distances and winning a world indoor title over 1500m and being the second fastest ever at the distance indoors combined with twice breaking the marathon world record is a more impressive accomplishment than winning world xc many times.
...
I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to explain things to someone like you Said.
grox wrote:
I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to explain things to someone like you Said.
Very convincingly.
Btw, I havn't written anything stupid. Have a nice day.
This thread got asinine in parts but the guy who was being less optimistic about Bekele's debut deserves an apology from some of you
ScottEvil wrote:
This thread got asinine in parts but the guy who was being less optimistic about Bekele's debut deserves an apology from some of you
+1
ScottEvil wrote:
This thread got asinine in parts but the guy who was being less optimistic about Bekele's debut deserves an apology from some of you
...but will I get it?
agip wrote:
...but will I get it?
Don't hold your breath. None of those who promised to bump this thread after the race have lifted a finger.
rekrunner wrote:
Are you honestly comparing Geb's 1500m indoor title to Bekele's cross-country wins, claiming that the 1500m + marathon is MORE impressive than the cross-country wins?
I'm arguing Geb's indoor 1500m title, in conjunction with his 2 marathon world records (as well as faster PRs at 3000, 2 miles, & half-marathon), is more impressive than Bekele's XC titles, and puts Geb above Bekele.
And Bekele's performance today didn't help all those people who were jumping down my throat. I don't expect an apology though. It's now how these people operate.
ScottEvil wrote:
This thread got asinine in parts but the guy who was being less optimistic about Bekele's debut deserves an apology from some of you
Why does he deserve an apology? Do you think Bekele is finished competing? Do you think today's performance overrides or erases anything that BK has accomplished in the past?
fan of US distance running wrote:
Bekele's performance today didn't help all those people who were jumping down my throat. I don't expect an apology though. It's now how these people operate.
I doubt you're actually craving a personal apology, but like me would like see the people who say things that turn out to be badly wrongheaded acknowledge that they screwed up. Not so you can feel like you "won" an argument with a bunch of anonymous tools, but because you'd be able to put more stock in a message board where at least half of the people were capable of at least faking integrity.
Me, I'll just eager to watch Canova and Hermens try to out-bullshit each other now. I don't know which of them is worse. And it's not like KB even ran a bad race any means, in fact ge ran fairly well. But when you have one of your louder advocates barking about how you're one race away from a 2:02 and change and another rambling on about how a two-hour marathon is likely within 20 years, you almost can't help but disappoint fans if you do anything less than win and shatter records in the process.
fan of US distance running wrote:
And Bekele's performance today didn't help all those people who were jumping down my throat. I don't expect an apology though. It's now how these people operate.
Nonsense.
It took Geb FOUR tries at the marathon to crack 2:06. How many did it take Bekele? ONE (and he almost cracked 2:05 in that debut). Now he's gone sub 2:06 2 for 2. Geb? 0 for 3 initially.
It ALSO took Geb SEVEN tries to break 2:05. Again, Bekele came very close to doing this in his debut.
So Bekele's "range" is looking every bit as good as Geb's:
Extremely similar 1500 pr's, and Bekele *starting out* much faster than Geb at the marathon. Yes, it remains to be seen of Bekele can take it one more notch down, to the sub 2:04 range. But there is a lot of time for that to occur.
And sorry, just because Geb set the WR in an era of much weaker depth in the marathon (yes, it's changed THAT much in a short amount of time), doesn't mean that he should be given the advantage over Bekele in the marathon *if* Bekele runs a faster time but doesn't break the record. At least in my opinion.
And as good Geb's indoor 1500 was, you are giving it too much weight due to it's #2 all time ranking indoors. Indoors is NOT on par with outdoors as far importance, not by a loooong shot. Hell, Rupp is # 5 all time indoor in the mile, right behind Morcelli. Do you think that accurately represents Rupp's stature as a miler??? Of course not. Geb gave the 1500 some real focus for an indoor season. Bekele just jumped in a couple at the end of an outdoor season. They ran very similar times. No big advantage here for Geb. REALLY.
fan of US distance running wrote:
Geb has run faster at 1500m and has a world indoor title at the distance,
Well, to paraphrase you:
So what? One would expect a 5000m stud like Geb to be "good" at the 1500.
(e.g. - Komen, El G, Mottram, Aouita, Lagat, Farah, Maree, etc, etc).
(i.e., who cares)
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:
It took Geb FOUR tries at the marathon to crack 2:06...
You make some reasonable points, but people need to avoid the temptation to draw perfect parallels between Geb's career and Bekele's. Geb ran the second half of a track 10K in 12:57 AFTER he had already raced a marathon (that 2:06:35 in London). And when he won Amsterdam in 2005, he was only one yeear removed from still being a major player on the track (fifth in the Olympic 10,000 despite missing a bunch of training leading into the Games thanks to a bum Achilles). He also ran 26:52 in 2007 a month after DNFing London and that same year broke the WR for an hour on the track. Before he first broke the marathon WR, he set road records at 10 miles, the half-marathon and 25K.
Not only has Bekele not been truly relevant on the track for several years, he also hasn't come close to doing any of the things at "short" distances (15K to 25K) Geb did on the roads. In short, Geb was simply a healthier and fitter runner when he undertook the marathon. None of this suggests that Bekele CAN'T come back and run a 2:03-ish marathon or a sub-59:00 half, but it gets tiresome watching people try to map out his chances in the light of Geb's accomplishments. Other than having similar track PRs, they aren't close to being the same runner. How many World Cross titles does Geb have? How many did he even chase?
fan of US distance running wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Are you honestly comparing Geb's 1500m indoor title to Bekele's cross-country wins, claiming that the 1500m + marathon is MORE impressive than the cross-country wins?
I'm arguing Geb's indoor 1500m title, in conjunction with his 2 marathon world records (as well as faster PRs at 3000, 2 miles, & half-marathon), is more impressive than Bekele's XC titles, and puts Geb above Bekele.
And Bekele's performance today didn't help all those people who were jumping down my throat. I don't expect an apology though. It's now how these people operate.
Agreed
The 1500 title and marathon world record
trumps bekeles cross country because of the overall range
1500 to marathon career credentials
not to mention longevity
And groundbreaking record setting on the track
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:
Nonsense.
It took Geb FOUR tries at the marathon to crack 2:06. How many did it take Bekele? ONE (and he almost cracked 2:05 in that debut). Now he's gone sub 2:06 2 for 2. Geb? 0 for 3 initially.
It ALSO took Geb SEVEN tries to break 2:05. Again, Bekele came very close to doing this in his debut.
So Bekele's "range" is looking every bit as good as Geb's:
Extremely similar 1500 pr's, and Bekele *starting out* much faster than Geb at the marathon. Yes, it remains to be seen of Bekele can take it one more notch down, to the sub 2:04 range. But there is a lot of time for that to occur.
And sorry, just because Geb set the WR in an era of much weaker depth in the marathon (yes, it's changed THAT much in a short amount of time), doesn't mean that he should be given the advantage over Bekele in the marathon *if* Bekele runs a faster time but doesn't break the record. At least in my opinion.
And as good Geb's indoor 1500 was, you are giving it too much weight due to it's #2 all time ranking indoors. Indoors is NOT on par with outdoors as far importance, not by a loooong shot. Hell, Rupp is # 5 all time indoor in the mile, right behind Morcelli. Do you think that accurately represents Rupp's stature as a miler??? Of course not. Geb gave the 1500 some real focus for an indoor season. Bekele just jumped in a couple at the end of an outdoor season. They ran very similar times. No big advantage here for Geb. REALLY.
We can agree to disagree. You're clearly not going to change your mind.
And I won't rate Bekele above Geb until he runs faster than 2:03:59.
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:
fan of US distance running wrote:Geb has run faster at 1500m and has a world indoor title at the distance,
Well, to paraphrase you:
So what? One would expect a 5000m stud like Geb to be "good" at the 1500.
(e.g. - Komen, El G, Mottram, Aouita, Lagat, Farah, Maree, etc, etc).
(i.e., who cares)
Your words, not mine.
blowing air wrote:
ScottEvil wrote:This thread got asinine in parts but the guy who was being less optimistic about Bekele's debut deserves an apology from some of you
Why does he deserve an apology? Do you think Bekele is finished competing? Do you think today's performance overrides or erases anything that BK has accomplished in the past?
Must we understand because Kenenisa didn't have a great race today, someone is owed an apology? If that person (agip, it seems) was insulted, he deserved an apology. That has nothing to do with any race results. No one has to apologise for having had an opinion.
And about Kenenisa's future in the marathon, the question remains open. He was good in Paris, slightly less in Chicago. Is it just one bad race or is he done? I hope and I think he has a few more good marathons in him.
I think I'll never get used to how many people here turn any topic into a war.
grox wrote:
blowing air wrote:Why does he deserve an apology? Do you think Bekele is finished competing? Do you think today's performance overrides or erases anything that BK has accomplished in the past?
Must we understand because Kenenisa didn't have a great race today, someone is owed an apology? If that person (agip, it seems) was insulted, he deserved an apology. That has nothing to do with any race results. No one has to apologise for having had an opinion.
And about Kenenisa's future in the marathon, the question remains open. He was good in Paris, slightly less in Chicago. Is it just one bad race or is he done? I hope and I think he has a few more good marathons in him.
I think I'll never get used to how many people here turn any topic into a war.
well apology is the wrong word, but it would be appropriate for odok and stinky pinky to at least acknowledge their errors and explain their new thinking.
And probably they should stop insulting people they disagree with - when the person they disagree with proves more correct, it makes them look pretty bad.
in any case, they shouldn't just disappear - that is not cool in any way.