Craig Virgin and Fam have interesting comments on Rupp and NOPe

No one can speculate with any degree of certainty whether or not an athlete is clean or dirty. Right now Virgin or Fam were no cleaner than Rupp is at this point in his career. Rupp takes drug tests and passes them the same as all other professional T&F athletes do.

Until an athlete tests positive they are innocent in eyes of the people who matter, whether fans like it or not. Best thing to do is to enjoy the races and leave the speculating to the drug testers. It's a lot more enjoyable that way.

really1111 wrote:

Lance was claiming to be clean in the dirtiest sport in the world and all the time beating everyone who got caught. Lance was good, but you don't beat the cheaters everytime.

As far as Rupp is concerned yes, he won a silver in the olympics, but if everything was like people claim where was his wc medal?

So, if Rupp medals at wc then he is a drug cheat? And since he did not medal at wc he must not be a drug cheat?

Gotta love your logic!

slipper sam wrote:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/2007/08/behind_the_scenes_in_park_city.html

Gunderson link

Gunderson is also an expert in altitude training having authored the classic "live high, train low" papers with Ben Levine.

Jim Stray-Gunderson also is the inventor of the Alter-G treadmill. He also knows quite a bit about training and has some interesting ideas.

Having met him and having been at several dinners (and plenty of beers) I cannot see Jim being one to be involved in doping. Just my instinct there.

luv2run wrote:

oxencow wrote:

If you can't run a mile at 2 mile pace after a two mile race then something is wrong with your training.

Not sure that is the criticism: I read it as doing a reasonable hard looking workout after a race like that. It is a valid question or criticism to me. Does that mean Virgin is correct, no. Just that it is a legit question.

You guys are missing the point.

Is 5xmile with 3min rest at 10k down to 12sec off mile PR extremely hard by itself?

No, but when you add in a 2mile attempt at a WORLD RECORD, then 15-20min rest and then the workout and finishing 12sec off mile PR, is insane.

I was a 4:08/8:50 mile/2miler, and if you told me to do this, I'd laugh in your face:

8:50 2mile, going through mile in 4:21 and falling apart last 800m.

15min break

5xmile going 4:40-4:45s then finishing in 4:20.

There is no way I could do that. I'd be lucky to come back 15min after my 2mile PR and run sub 4:20 for one mile.

I would bet my testes that he had more than 15 minutes between finishing his race and starting the workout.

former former wrote:

I believe that Salazar is a 100% drug cheat and that his athletes are all dirty to some degree.

Virgin is an idiot that is into himself more than the sport. Fam has always been a little out there.

So the question is, Who do you want to hear from? It will not be a Nike current athlete because they have too much to lose. Someone like Amy Yoder Begley was hired as a collegiate coach because of what she achieved under Salazar. So ex Salazar athletes that still want a job in the industry can not speak out. Others will be considered sour grapes. Who do we want to hear from?

This ^^^^^

Virgin and Fam do appear to have similar personalities and I am someone who knew Virgin back in the day. While both of them may be taking a bold stand here, because of who they are, they have little credibility. Unless a syringe falls out of someone's pocket on national TV, this saga is probably not going to go away for many years. Nike is the 800 pound monster in the room and I will keep on wearing my Asics.

The best answer to Craig on Craig Virgin's Facebook was this one. And remember, those were 1600s, not miles. Add 2 - 3 seconds.

You have to remember Rupp is a 13:00, 26:48, 3:51 guy. Ask yourself a question -- what exactly kind of workouts are 3:51/13:00/26:48 guys are supposed to be doing -- on a tuned indoor track that didn't even exist when you and I were running? Repeat 4:20 miles with a lot of rest in between? Yawn. They get after in on the last one? Yawn.

Also, there is a fundamental difference in your own training vs Alberto's own, and now his coaching. When you were running your workouts weren't the end-all. They were merely a step towards the races -- that's when you put your game-face on. Alberto the runner had his game-face on in training. As a coach, his runners have their game-faces on in workouts. Different mindset.

Craig. You ran a 4:01 mile. A 13:20 5k and a 27:29 10k. Your training isn't supposed to be like Rupps anymore than a 4:05/14:00/29:00 guy's training is supposed to be like yours. You trained on crappy tracks, the likes that some of this current generation could never even imagine. Rupp-Certified tracks didn't even exist. The Illinois Tartan surface doesn't compare to modern Mondo surfaces. Your diet was classic truck-stop fare - The Farmer's Speacial - bacon, eggs, homefries, short stack of pancakes.

If Rupp ever ate a Farmer's Special his head would explode.

I watched the live feed and it was 15 minutes and Flotrack announcer also said 15 minutes.

Added Perspective wrote:

part of the problem wrote:

Haven't we witnessed enough athletes get busted without testing positive to know that it is not a indication of innocence?

Added Perspective wrote:

What is? Or, do you actually prefer to remain cynical and bash every professional runner who establishes impressive new Personal Records?

I'm sorry, but even the skeptical "guilty until proven innocent" crowd needs to establish some ground rules regarding what does prove their innocence!

The silence is deafening.

As others have implied, the majority of the doping accusations within the LRC boards seem to be authored by people who are fans of track and field, but their ignorance outweighs their expertise. Nothing new, I'm afraid.

The silence is due to me not coming back to this thread until now.

I tend to take the athletes and their performances at face value. I don't know if any of these guys are doped or not. I don't accuse runners of being doped simply because they have a great race, workout, season or set a record.

I would also not be that surprised if any of the top American's popped positive.

My earlier post simply pointed out that 'not popping positive' is not the 'end all, be all' of proving innocence. Do you think Marion Jones is innocent? Has BALCO taught you nothing?

As a fan, ignorance can be bliss but it shouldn't be a crutch.

It is funny how nobody mentioned Rupp's super human qualities the week before when he couldn't finish a post race workout. In that workout Cam Levins outlasted him.

Doing 5 x 1 mile at slower than 10k pace, then a 4:04 mile (not 1600) is not overly impressive. This is a guy who can run 3:50 for the mile, 12:50 for 5000m and 26:48 for 10000m.

As someone who did some pretty remarkable and history making performances, myself, at a very young age...and did it completely natural...

His comment from the post.

I don't know Rupp. I've briefly met one of his parents, but that's as close as I've come. However, I at least admit I don't know anything about what he's doing or on. The problem is a lot of people convicting or clearing with faulty logic.

- Lance beating tests for years isn't a conviction of someone else running record type performances and testing clean.

- Rupp not testing positive for anything isn't proof of his innocence.

- Some JV runner at Oklahoma State likely doesn't know anything substantive.

Questioning is good. Unfortunately in today's world of sport it's almost necessary to be somewhat jaded. I'd be shocked if Salazar/Rupp aren't on the edge, but on the edge is where you have to be at the elite level. I've never understood the critics that don't perceive Rupp as an old-fashioned blue collar runner, as if gadgets and gizmos somewhat detract from 100+ mile weeks. Why not try something different and see if it works?

I prefer to believe Rupp is clean, but that's just me. He has been a talent since day one. He's had a very long period of consistent, injury free training at the elite level with the same coach. That hasn't been the case for most of America's elite athletes. Look at what Solinsky and others have accomplished with consistent training at their peaks and how hard it is to get that magic back after injury.

I realize my personal thoughts above don't prove anything. They are only opinion. I just wish that more posters on this subject would recognize the same about their comments or at least take a critical thinking/logic class to help understand what qualifies as proof of an argument/fact.

Just like with modern recreational drugs, I would imagine there are tons of synthetic analogues of all sorts of PEDs that are structurally distinct enough to avoid detection, but that function in similar or superior ways to "traditional" PEDs. It's the same game the DEA is playing against synthetic cannabinoids and cathinones; it's a losing battle. Add in the thyroid stuff and it all can be rationalized as "gray area". Whether NOP is actually doing this is unclear, but Mo's 3:28 out of nowhere is a huge red flag...

I, too, was a high school prodigy...and then a college prodigy (aren't you a fellow Big Ten athlete?) and then an int'l prodigy for my young age and also as an American.... and my ascent into the top runners of both the U.S. and then international was pretty fast. But, it was all graphable...and steadily upward year to year... from my sophomore year of H.S. on....with the exception of when I had injuries....

Another of Virgin's comments on the post. We know you were fast Craig!

"out of nowhere"? Are you kidding? Do you watch the Olympics?

part of the problem wrote:

Haven't we witnessed enough athletes get busted without testing positive to know that it is not a indication of innocence?

Why test then?

tryinghard wrote:You guys are missing the point.

Is 5xmile with 3min rest at 10k down to 12sec off mile PR extremely hard by itself?

No, but when you add in a 2mile attempt at a WORLD RECORD, then 15-20min rest and then the workout and finishing 12sec off mile PR, is insane.

I was a 4:08/8:50 mile/2miler, and if you told me to do this, I'd laugh in your face:

8:50 2mile, going through mile in 4:21 and falling apart last 800m.

15min break

5xmile going 4:40-4:45s then finishing in 4:20.

There is no way I could do that. I'd be lucky to come back 15min after my 2mile PR and run sub 4:20 for one mile.

I have to disagree with you. I ran close to 8:30 for 2 miles. I'm not Rupp (my 10k PR is almost 2 minutes slower) so 5xmile after the race would not have been reasonable for me, but I could have done 3xmile cut-downs to about 4:15.

After all my track PRs in the 1980s I usually followed with a 5-6 mile run and a set of 300m cut-downs. I don't get why people are so incredulous about Rupp's post-race workout.

ggilder wrote:

part of the problem wrote:

Haven't we witnessed enough athletes get busted without testing positive to know that it is not a indication of innocence?

Why test then?

Testing positive in an indication of guilt. That in itself is a good reason to test.

Seriously, how could anything be more obvious?

Some Things Should Be Obvious wrote:

ggilder wrote:

Why test then?

Testing positive in an indication of guilt. That in itself is a good reason to test.

Seriously, how could anything be more obvious?

Exactly, idiot question by ggilder. Testing catches some, doesn't catch others and the threat of testing deters others.