Top Ten Greatest High School Runners (Boys)

I don't know how a guy like Edward Cheserek doesn't make the top 10. If anything with his range he should be in the top 3-5. Cheserek is the only HS runner to be sub-1:50 and sub-14 minutes in the 5K. Take a look at this resume:

10 National Championships:

2011 Outdoors: 5000M; DMR Outdoors (Split 4:02)

2011 XC: Foot Locker Champ

2012 Winter Track: DMR, SMR, 2 Mile

2012 Outdoors: 2 Mile

2012 XC Foot Locker Champ

2013 Winter Track: SMR, 2 Mile

Class Records

Sophomore Year:

Indoor 2 Mile 8:42

Outdoor Mile 4:03

Outdoor 5K 14:02

Outdoor Steeple 9:00

Junior Year:

Indoor Mile 4:02

Indoor 2 Mile (4:27, 4:16 Splits 2nd place around 9:20)

Indoor 5000M 13:57** Indoor Record

Senior Year:

Indoor 2 Mile 8:39**Indoor Record (Broke Gerry Lindren 47 Year old Record)

I know he has had some rough times at Dream Mile, but Cheserek has always been more of a 5K\10K guy. When the distance has gone up he has been unbeatable. He did not lose a XC or 2 Mile race his entire Jr. or Sr. year. In fact he only lost the 2 Mile once and that was as a sophomore when dueling with Lukas and running the 3rd fastest indoor 2 Mile at the time. When racing for National Championships Cheserek has always run just for the win. It is a shame he never gave an all-out effort outdoors in the 2 Mile. I believe he was capable of challenging the record. Cheserek was at his best in in XC. He holds 8 course records including busting at ridiculous times such as 14:18 and breaking legendary course records such as Holmdel (14:53) and Van Cortlandt Park (11:55). At both Foot Lockers he just ran for the win. Again I believe he was more than capable of breaking the course record. Cheserek was also unbelievable at relays and always gave a high level effort even in nothing meets. When running DMR’s he was always running 4:02-4:08 and in the SMR he would run 1:49-1:51. I don’t think there has ever been a guy who has run more sub-4:10 relays as Cheserek.

It is hard to argue that guys like Jim Ryun and Allan Webb are not the best at an individual event, but when looking at complete range from 800/Mile to 2 Mile/XC few were as competitive at so many events as Cheserek. When I look for greatest I am looking for a range over many events like Cheserek, Lindgren and Verzbikas.

His Van Cortlandt mark does not count as a CR due to the park construction.

You also lose credibility for not using an apostrophe correctly.

Cheserek's improvement was negligible in high school. Saying it's a shame he never went "all out" in an outdoor 2M also diminishes your case.

That's a good list, personally I would move Cheserek

up 2 places and replace Hulst with Grandville and remove Nelson from the top-10. Do disrespect to Hult but you can't compare an athlete who ran great H.S. times to an athlete who ran world class times as Grandville did. Although we place a great importance on a H.S. athletes run a sub-4 mile, I rate Rupp's 5K and Chapa's 10K as equal in terms of quality, which is also why I would put Liquori somewhere near the bottom of the top-20. - That's my take.

trackcoach wrote:

...and remove Nelson from the top-10.

One more time. The people on all of these (admittedly subjective) lists cover approximately the last 50 years, correct? Think about this, folks: Jeff Nelson held the national 2-mile record for most of those years! That should be sufficient to include him on any list of the all-time Top 10 high school distance runners.

When you add in the fact that Jeff held the course record at Mt. SAC for 22 years (and might still have it if the course wasn't noticeably easier now), his selection should be automatic.

Added Perspective wrote:

When you add in the fact that Jeff held the course record at Mt. SAC for 22 years (and might still have it if the course wasn't noticeably easier now), his selection should be automatic.

I don't think that Mt. SAC record is as impressive as you think it is. A lot of great runners never ran that course.

Sartor Resartus wrote:

I don't think that Mt. SAC record is as impressive as you think it is. A lot of great runners never ran that course.

That's a matter of opinion, but you rather conveniently deleted the first part of my quote which contains the most compelling evidence, so I will repeat it for emphasis:

Added Perspective wrote:

The people on all of these (admittedly subjective) lists cover approximately the last 50 years, correct? Think about this, folks: Jeff Nelson held the national 2-mile record for most of those years! That should be sufficient to include him on any list of the all-time Top 10 high school distance runners.

That is why you need to look at Lindgren's 3-mile times. HSers didn't run the 3M that often (except for Postal Competition), but he was very close to the WR for 3 miles.

The 3mile and 6mile were major events back then.

Added Perspective wrote:

Sartor Resartus wrote:

I don't think that Mt. SAC record is as impressive as you think it is. A lot of great runners never ran that course.

That's a matter of opinion, but you rather conveniently deleted the first part of my quote which contains the most compelling evidence, so I will repeat it for emphasis:

It's a matter of opinion as to how impressive it is, but not that a number of great runners didn't run it.

And I deleted the first part of your post because I wasn't addressing it. It's a valid point that I wouldn't argue with you about.

Added Perspective wrote:

trackcoach wrote:

...and remove Nelson from the top-10.

One more time. The people on all of these (admittedly subjective) lists cover approximately the last 50 years, correct? Think about this, folks: Jeff Nelson held the national 2-mile record for most of those years! That should be sufficient to include him on any list of the all-time Top 10 high school distance runners.

When you add in the fact that Jeff held the course record at Mt. SAC for 22 years (and might still have it if the course wasn't noticeably easier now), his selection should be automatic.

It is hard to compare XC times because courses and conditions change; course records are impressive, but I am far more impressed with XC athletes like Ritz who went head-to-head and beat other great XC athletes. XC course records always seem incredible until other great athletes run the same course. Long standing records on some NE courses like VCP, Holmdele and Belmont have been set and reset over the last couple of years.

Nelson's claim to fame is far and away his 2-mile record; a few things about that:

1. Nelson's record lasted as long as it did because no other H.S. athletes got a chance to run a 2-mile against pros.

2. Lindgren's 8:40 run indoors over 20 years earlier is a stronger record and is still standing nearly 50 years later.

3. If Webb had run 2-mile against pros around the time he set the mile HSR, the 2-mile record would likely be in the mid-8:20s. Also, when Rupp set the 5K HSR, he came through the 2-mile around 8:47, in a 2-mile against pros Rupp would have had a good shot at the record. Cheserek ran 8:42 indoors as a sophomore and with out a doubt, he would have broken that record even against H.S. athletes if he hadn't taken almost month off during the outdoor season his senior year.

4. Fernandez broke the record in 80 degree temps negative splitting against H.S. athletes and the current record is 6 seconds faster and was also set against H.S. athletes.

5. NCAA athletes routinely run the 3K equivalent times to an 8:36 2-mile who are only 4:02/3 milers.

6. In terms of quality, it is almost pedestrian compared to incredible performances like Grandville's 1:46 800m and Webb's mile.

This is not meant to take anything away from Nelson who was a great athlete and belongs on any top-20 list, but there is a big advantage getting to run a 2-mile against professional athletes. - Just keeping it real.

Fair enough... I think that finishing in 4th place (and first American) at the 1979 World Junior Cross-country championships while still in high school easily meets that criteria. He finished ahead of several prominent Americans including Jim Hill, John Gregorek, Alan Scharsu, and a young man from England named Steve Cram. There wasn't a Kinney/Footlocker race in existence yet, but this performance is at least as impressive as a Footlocker win, and probably even better.

Beyond that, as you might imagine I disagree with what this thread's author said about the Mt. SAC course. Between the annual cross-country invitational and the Kinney/Footlocker western regional, the vast majority of the greatest distance runners in the Pacific Time Zone have run that course during the last half-century. Holding the record for 22 years is remarkable.

That is a double-edged sword. At one point during that race, Nelson was shoved/elbowed onto the infield by a collegiate runner with a bruised ego, so it's safe to say that mishap probably cost him another second or two. Regardless, there is a big difference between "keeping it real" and over-rationalizing.

You authored a rather lengthy list of "ifs," but the fact of that matter is that the 2-mile (or it's ugly descendent, the 3200m) is run by thousands of high school athletes every year, and the very best of them get several shots at a fast time on all-weather tracks. Despite all of that, Nelson's record lasted for almost three decades.

So, we have come full circle and I still stand by what I said: based upon his performances, I can't fathom any list of the all-time Top 10 high school distance runners without Jeff Nelson.

trackcoach wrote:

It is hard to compare XC times because courses and conditions change; course records are impressive, but I am far more impressed with XC athletes like Ritz who went head-to-head and beat other great XC athletes.

Added Perspective wrote:

Fair enough... I think that finishing in 4th place (and first American) at the 1979 World Junior Cross-country championships while still in high school easily meets that criteria. (Jeff Nelson) finished ahead of several prominent Americans including Jim Hill, John Gregorek, Alan Scharsu, and a young man from England named Steve Cram. There wasn't a Kinney/Footlocker race in existence yet, but this performance is at least as impressive as a Footlocker win, and probably even better.

24 hours later...

trackcoach wrote:

(*crickets*)

Added Perspective wrote:

[quote]trackcoach wrote:

It is hard to compare XC times because courses and conditions change; course records are impressive, but I am far more impressed with XC athletes like Ritz who went head-to-head and beat other great XC athletes.

Added Perspective wrote:

Fair enough... I think that finishing in 4th place (and first American) at the 1979 World Junior Cross-country championships while still in high school easily meets that criteria. (Jeff Nelson) finished ahead of several prominent Americans including Jim Hill, John Gregorek, Alan Scharsu, and a young man from England named Steve Cram. There wasn't a Kinney/Footlocker race in existence yet, but this performance is at least as impressive as a Footlocker win, and probably even better.

Finishing 4th at WJXC is impressive, but I am not sure if it is more impressive than a Kinney victory. U.S. high school athletes won WJXC several times in the 70s and I remember thinking Nelson was going to win and was disappointed he got 4th. WJXC was no where near as competitive as it is now, the North & East Africans didn't start sending highly competitive teams en mass until almost a decade later. The Africans used their top high school runners back then, nowadays, the top African juniors are world class athletes running diamond league meets the next year. Nowadays, it is a major accomplishment if a U.S. Jr athlete can finish in the top-10. I am far more impressed with what Ritz did in 2001 finishing 3rd. One of the athletes who beat Ritz, Kenenisa Bekele ran a 7:30 3k that same year and the athlete that finished behind Ritz Nicholas Kemboi ran a 26:30 10K the following year...perspective. Nelson's 2-mile record is by far his greatest accomplishment and that alone puts him in the top-20, but not top-10.

trackcoach wrote:

Finishing 4th at WJXC is impressive, but I am not sure if it is more impressive than a Kinney victory.

I'm quite sure that it is. Setting aside the traditional excuses from the "glass half empty" skeptics about the level of competition, Nelson was easily the best American runner on a USA team that even included college freshman. That is at least equal to a Kinney/Footlocker victory, and I believe it's better.

Once again, combined with holding the 2-mile HS record for almost 30 years, it would really be a huge injustice to exclude him from a list of top 10 high school distance runners.

I agree Nelson should be in the top 10. Next to Virgin's incredible number of sub-9 2 miles, Nelson probably has the next best portfolio of 2M quality performances. Virgin could have run 8:36 but Nelson actually did.

I'd toss Cheserek of the list because Saarel and McGorty definitely overshadowed him during his outdoor senior year.

Did Chapa run World Juniors? I know he spanked Hulst the couple of times they raced on the track later that year. Nothing can take away from what Hulst did in winning the races he ran. I am just saying that if there would have been a footlocker in 1974 and 75, there is an excellent chance that he wouldn't have a footlocker title much like Rupp and GF don't. There is also a good chance that he would have 2.And before you get too excited about the world junior title, look at how many african nations were there. It was a heck of a lot different event back then.

blargh wrote:

True, but Hulst was obviously the best of that era in Cross Country. Hunt might have beaten him at Mt. Sac once, but no one else really was as good. Serna was the next best thing, and he was a year older. There's a couple pages on Running Shots on Hulst and his US Jr XC win, and it was dominant. And then of course he won the World Jr Title.

More insight to CC:

In ’79, winner Eddie De Pauw was a great CC runner. It was his third progressive appearance at WJXC, he was 25th in ’77 (When Hunt won). De Pauw was the top returnee (9th in ’78 finishing in right in front of Rod Berry, who was very good in his own right!) De Pauw ran 13:39.77 for 5000m in 79 and Steve Binns (2nd) went 13:27.04 for 5000m in '79, a WJR at the time!

’79 WJXC was loaded with talent.

No, Chapa did not run the world junior meet. Chapa beat Hulst three times over 10000 meters in 1975-6. The first two were on the track and the third was cross country.

coach d. wrote:

No, Chapa did not run the world junior meet. Chapa beat Hulst three times over 10000 meters in 1975-6. The first two were on the track and the third was cross country.

In HS, Chapa & Hulst never raced in cross country.

They did meet twice in track, both at 10,000m.