Where does Asbel Kiprop rank among all-time 1500m runners?

Barakus Obama wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

nonsense

bernie/hicham ran 3'27 in '04 well into modern epo-testing era

they stop epo & still run 3'27 ???

Are you saying you believe they were clean?

yes

if ryun was capable of

1'39.9/3'24.1 back in '67

i have no hesitation in not querying high-3'25/3'26-flat ability from other guys 30y+ later

you clearly have no clue about human ability

oosk wrote:

[quote]Hf.R. wrote:

And he had a pacer in Bekele all the way to the finish line and couldn't break 60.

Excuse me for digging up a relatively old reply, and sorry if someone else already asked this... but did you even watch the damn race?

Bekele let himself get dropped before eventually roaring past. He absolutely helped Mo's /performance/, because he was the only one in the field capable of sustaining a challenge. However, he may or may not have helped Mo's time, and, if he did, it was NOT by being a pacer. If Mo can finish a 60:low effort with a last 4 in 59, the 'pacer' clearly did a shitty job. It was a race that was conducive to strong competition, but not necessarily top-shelf time.

Mo's HM was a full-out effort. But if you don't think he could have gone at least marginally faster in time-trial conditions, you're not delusional.

That said, I don't put any weight on coulda-woulda-shoulda efforts. In my book, Mo is a low-60 guy. But pretending it was the perfect time trial or calling Bekele a pacer is totally incorrect.

Addendum: Bekele won, and deserved to. But if you're one of the fanboys who calls it a domination or who pretends it absolutely settles the Mo vs. KB debate, again, you're a little delusional.

yuo9yureterhsthgko;lik wrote:

Addendum: Bekele won, and deserved to. But if you're one of the fanboys who calls it a domination or who pretends it absolutely settles the Mo vs. KB debate, again, you're a little delusional.

I never claimed that Bekele was a perfect pacemaker in that race. My point was that Farah was pushed all the way to the finish line and only ran a 60:10. With a final 400 of only 59, I think that shows that he was at best in 59:5x shape.

I do consider it something close to domination though. Bekele toyed with Farah's kick in the final 400m. Toying with someone's kick to me indicates domination.

Lastly, what debate do you speak of? What needs settling? It seems delusional to think that Farah is in any way better than Bekele so please explain what the debate is about. I didn't know there was one.

oosk wrote:

There's a difference between 'best event' and 'best chance at a medal'.

You're the one who's struggling to distinguish between a sit-and-kick race and a time trial.

Hardloper wrote:

oosk wrote:

There's a difference between 'best event' and 'best chance at a medal'.

You're the one who's struggling to distinguish between a sit-and-kick race and a time trial.

I'm not struggling to distinguish between those two at all and gave no indication that I was. So what are you talking about? Are you saying that there's no difference between 'best event' and 'best chance at a medal'?

oosk wrote:

I'm not struggling to distinguish between those two at all and gave no indication that I was.

Yeah you did. You tried to compare Mo's times from his 3:28 time trial to his 12:53 and 26:46 sit-and-kick races. If he got in a decent time trial in every distance his best distances would probably be 3-5k.

yes

if ryun was capable of

1'39.9/3'24.1 back in '67

i have no hesitation in not querying high-3'25/3'26-flat ability from other guys 30y+ later

you clearly have no clue about human ability[/quote]

By claming Ryun was had 1.39 ability we can easily tell that you are not being objective, fanboy. Ryun had no such ability, same goes for 3.24.

El G was a drug cheat. Deal with it. Most top runners have been.

And as to your naive and ridiculous belief in a bulletproof EPO testing system, get out of here. Pure stupidity.

the difference between el geurrouj in 2004

and late 90's , was that able to take epo

right up to and day of event .

world record is due to this fact.

from what 2002 onwards could not chance this as

find in urine .

with having to stop for 1-2 weeks and microdosing

is just not going to attain the same level

of performance enhancement.

younger red blood cells and the many other things epo

does that gain from taking up to event .

and in 2004 probably could cut it to 3-4 days

before test .

how able to run around 3.28 .

the only few athletes that stick out in new epo testing

era and still getting maximum enhancement as if taking

epo right up to event

ARE BEKELE , GEBRESELASSIE AS WAS AT END OF CAREER JUST

MISSED WINDOW FOR IT

AND JEREMY WARINER .

DOUGHT THAT PROTECTED ATHLETE .

BASICALLY WERE ON MICERA AND BOTH WARINER AND BEKELE

HAD TO GIVE IT UP WITH TESTING IN 2008

SHOWES ALWAYS AHEAD OF TESTERS .

micera is better than epo .

imagine if el guerrouj had discovered it in 2002

onwards .

With respect to your last point: excuse me, I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't referring to you in particular. I also wasn't referring to all-time status - Bekele is well ahead of Mo in that regard. However, I've seen a handful of posters talking as if Bekele's victory in the HM demonstrated his utter superiority as of right now. My response to that: what's their head to head record? Is it 2-1 for Farah? In recent years, Farah has been every bit as great as Bekele. Bekele's pedigree wins out in the long term, but at this exact moment I'd take Mo over KB.

Anyhow, that's my own opinion. And I'm tilting at windmills anyway, since my original premise didn't apply to you. Moving on...

I dispute the a final 400m in 59 only indicates a time trial max of 59:xx. If I could have a final lap a full nine seconds faster than my average pace (in any race at all), I would be certain that I could go much, much faster. I don't think that Mo (or KB) was in WR shape or anything, but only 11-20s faster? I'd say that's a little conservative.

I absolutely disagree with the assertion that KB was toying with Mo. He was tactically savvy, but I don't think he had anything else up his sleeve. Mo didn't break until the last moment. Unless KB was clairvoyant, toying with Mo would have been an extremely risky gamble.

TL;DR: I think Mo and KB were both capable of well sub-60. I think that, whereas KB's overall career record is far superior to Mo's, right now Mo is as good a runner as anyone. I think that the HM between the two was damn close, and I don't think anyone was toying with anyone else.

Sorry for derailing this thread.

ANYWAY anyone have definitive timeline of

first athlete in athletics to test positive

for epo in urine .

was it that morrocan steple chaser in 2002.

rouche had well developed micera by 2002

but other athletes only really jumped on it

before window was already closing .

ramzi wouldnt even get in final without it

somwwhat better than epo .

so only the very few select athletes had from

the start .only with best of manager .

also kiprop is dirty ,

why did he suddenly start

sprinting down track like bolt at end of his fast

1500m ,

igf-1 lr3 ,the lightness .

and the usual epo regime of do as much as can

without testing for it .

BEKELE and MICERA go together like

two peas in a pod .

wake up you fools ,

igf-1 lr3 the lightness is athletics dirty little secret

at moment .

perfect encehancement to nervous system .

from bolt to certain kenyan 800m to kiprop.

to many another athlete .

bolt been on this shit since 15/16 .

and this is the reality .

both wariner and bekele knew

had to give up micera for 2 months

before olympics .

but still used it to train right up and for

alot of that season without much dip in performance.

before had to switch to newer epo regime .

from then on ,unfortunately wariner burntout

would he of burnt out with unlimited cera at

disposal ,dont think so .

and results of bekele then on ,reflect epo usage of

that time .still obviously very very good but that

energy reserve compared to other athletes at end of race

gone due to how good cera was .and so with it his killer kick .

yuo9yureterhsthgko;lik wrote:

I dispute the a final 400m in 59 only indicates a time trial max of 59:xx. If I could have a final lap a full nine seconds faster than my average pace (in any race at all), I would be certain that I could go much, much faster. I don't think that Mo (or KB) was in WR shape or anything, but only 11-20s faster? I'd say that's a little conservative.

I absolutely disagree with the assertion that KB was toying with Mo. He was tactically savvy, but I don't think he had anything else up his sleeve. Mo didn't break until the last moment. Unless KB was clairvoyant, toying with Mo would have been an extremely risky gamble.

A last lap 9 seconds faster than average doesn't mean they could run more than 11-20 seconds faster. Guys have finished 1500s with last laps 9 seconds faster than the average pace, but that doesn't mean they could run a whole 20 seconds faster. At this level, holding back just a few seconds will allow you to have a devastating finishing kick.

KB doesn't need to be clairvoyant to pull off a stunt like that. He just needs to be gutsy. Which is something that he has always been known for. Recall that he tried to take on EL G with a finishing kick twice instead of pushing the pace. And in this case vs Farah, he had something to prove - that he wasn't worried about Farah's kick. Watch the race again and see how he let's Farah catch up and then pulls easily pulls away again.

Hardloper wrote:

oosk wrote:

I'm not struggling to distinguish between those two at all and gave no indication that I was.

Yeah you did. You tried to compare Mo's times from his 3:28 time trial to his 12:53 and 26:46 sit-and-kick races. If he got in a decent time trial in every distance his best distances would probably be 3-5k.

No, I didn't. We were talking about times that were ACTUALLY run. And in actuality, his 1500m is better than all of his other times. Whether or not he could have run faster is irrelevant. We're talking about ACTUAL times.

And no, you're wrong. Why do you ignore how slow his half marathon was? Do you think it is better than his 1500m time?

Barakus Obama wrote:

El G was a drug cheat. If you think otherwise you have little knowledge of what you are talking about.

On what evidence? You're the one with no knowledge.

someone had to do it wrote:

Both of you are wrong

He is the same type of runner as Daniel Komen

i.e.,

a 3k runner who can run very well at distances immediately above & below 3000m, namely the 1500/5k.

Well, this is nonsense. Farah and Komen aren't, in any way, the same types of runner. Komen ran even laps, hard, well .. Farah has never done this, that I've seen. Komen never outsprinted anyone in his life. Farah has a great kick.

i.e. .. the quoted post is silly.

How can Steve Cram get left off of these lists?

1:42.88/3:29.67/3:46.32

Last athlete that we know to run sub 3:47 without drugs. Faster than Coe, but not as decorated at the Olympic level. I think you could argue the top two spots on the list (without the spectra of drugs) are Coe and Cram and it is hard to decide which one was better. Cram has Worlds gold in 83, Olympic silver in 84 and 4th in 88. Coe has silver 800/gold 1500 at boycotted Moscow Olympics and

silver 1500/gold 800 at 84 LA. Coe has no World titles. Cram beats Coe at every European Champs they compete in together.

Coe

1:41.73/3:29.77/3:47.33

Everyone else after 93 are dopers. This thread needs two lists, one before 93 and one after. On the list before it is Cram and Coe 1-2. You can debate you is one. I say Cram wins just barely.

wtfunny wrote:

Well, this is nonsense. Farah and Komen aren't, in any way, the same types of runner. Komen ran even laps, hard, well .. Farah has never done this, that I've seen. Komen never outsprinted anyone in his life. Farah has a great kick.

i.e. .. the quoted post is silly.

No

Komen often didn't outkick people because he always set a fast pace. He ran away from people. No need to outkick anyone when you're putting in sub 60 laps in the middle of a 5k championship race.

Mo could do the same but is satisfied with winning in a kick.

They are both 3k types, i.e., that is their best distance. And they can run well at 1500m & 5000m as well.

Mo has run 3'28 for 1500m, Komen ran 3'29 for 1500m & 3'46 for the mile

Here is a video of his mile PR race

You don't run a 3'46 mile without having some speed.

Komen's speed was slightly inferior to Mo's but not by much. Komen had about 50 flat 400 speed (better than Geb & Bekele). Mo likely has 49.high. Insignificant difference.

He outkicked Geb here with a sub 59 second last lap in a 12'45 race...