Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context

Ego, Grammar Checker wrote:

Actually, they left out a "have" between would and destroyed... would HAVE destroyed.

Oh, dear. I never would'f known.

Tanya Skagle wrote:

... Trolling really is a lot of fun!

If you say so. I personally can't think of a single thing that it is funner than.

metal water bottle wrote:

THE PART THAT INCLUDED HIM LOSING TO ROSA IN THE 2 MILE LAST YEAR- THAT'S WHAT PART. THE PART THAT DIDN'T GET VIRGIN'S RECORD AT DETWEILLER, DESPITE IT BEING A BEAUTIFUL DAY. THE PART THAT INCLUDES HIM BASICALLY RUNNING WHAT DERRICK DID THROUGH HIS SENIOR YEAR (check the comparable race/course times).

Anyway, seriously, I like Lukas a lot. I believe he'll run some real fast times this spring; probably faster than Ritz at 1 Mile/2 Mile...maybe 5K (13:44). But the facts remain- Ritz did not lose a race to hs competition for 24 months. During that time he won by incredible margins over superb competition, and finished 3rd at WJCC.

1) Lukas can't go undefeated for 2 years due his aforementioned loss.

2) He hasn't been winning by incredible margins.

3) Can he finish 3rd at WJCC? Doubt it.

I think this discussion has come down down to Lindgren, Ritz and Lukas and in the minds of some people there is nothing from a cross country standpoint Lukas can do to end all debate. Perhaps if he won FLNC for the 2nd time by a large margin, which he is probably not going to happen. Perhaps if he won USATF Juniors, which he is not going to do. Perhaps if he runs faster in every event than Lindgren and Ritz during the track season that will do it, which is something that could happen.

TrackCoach wrote:

I think this discussion has come down down to Lindgren, Ritz and Lukas...

I think that you are full of sh!t. You are so incredibly full of yourself that you think that whatever your viewpoint is must mean that this is what this discussion has come down to.

Get over yourself, dude.

What the hell has Lukas done that would make him the best? He hasn't run unbelievably fast and he hasn't demolished the fields. He also got his doors blown off at NON (yes I know he supposedly going for the record but he didn't get it, did he?)

Lukas is obviously very good and that's great. He's just not the best. I think there were probably 2 guys in the field at NXN who could have beaten him on another day.

jjjjjj wrote:

Track coach is correct that the resurgence dates back to the mid 1990s. When Franklyn Sanchez and Andy Powell ran around 8:50, and Sanchez was only 16 at the time, that right there was the beginning. Jennings and Stember carried it forward from there and the height of it all was Ritz/Hall/Webb, of course, but depth continued to build at the hs level throughout the aughts.

I agree with your general point, but your order's wrong. Jennings and Stember were a couple years older than Powell/Sanchez.

The resurgence chronologically was something like Stember/Jennings/Riley/Karie/Sanchez/Powell/Torres/Sage/Teg/Ritz/Webb/Hall. You had some freakish performances that seemed like random data points, like Stember's sick 4:04 state meet, Karie's quick mile times, the Sanchez/Powell 2 mile dual, Torres qualifying for FL 4 times and almost winning twice, and ending with the 1999 FL race and a great 2000 track season that culminated to Sage running 4:00.29. After that, you had the senior year of the big 3.

metal water bottle wrote:

But the facts remain- Ritz did not lose a race to hs competition for 24 months. During that time he won by incredible margins over superb competition, and finished 3rd at WJCC.

He won by an incredible 4 seconds over, lol, Donald Sage at Foot Locker.

See how easily it could be thrown back in your face when all you do is concentrate on one race. I like you, I really do. You're just not veery bright. But that's OK.

metal water bottle wrote:

3) Can he finish 3rd at WJCC? Doubt it.

Will everybody get over Ritz's 3rd place in world jr. xc. That was worst worlds xc in the modern history of wxc.

Look at who finished 2nd in the SENIOR division that year: Sergey Lebid. Look at who finished third in the senior division: Silvio Guerra. Who? So by your account Segei lebed and Silvio Gurra are the two greatest non-African runners in the history of cross country. Guess what, Solinski, Motram, Teg, Rupp will never ever get a silver medal at world xc. Wow, Lebid and Guerra are so much better than any those guys.

That was as a junior. As a senior, he beat Alan Webb and Ryan Hall by 20+ seconds, in 14:35, after walking through the mile.

Bottom line...

Fastest times-

Ritz 14:10 5K / 13:40* 3 Mile at Mich State Meet...14:29 at FL as a junior...14:35 AT KENOSHA

Lukas 14:23 5K / 13:53 3 Mile at Illinois State Meet...others?

Kenosha time-

Ritz 14:35

Lukas 14:45

World cross-

Ritz 3rd place while in HS

Lukas...can he do it? G Fernandez was 11th, so maybe Lukas could be top 7-8?

I just don't see how anyone could think that the guy with a slower PR, a slower time on the same course (Kenosha), and is a longshot at finishing as high as the other guy on the world stage can be ranked higher... what's your basis?

hadang wrote:

metal water bottle wrote:

3) Can he finish 3rd at WJCC? Doubt it.

Will everybody get over Ritz's 3rd place in world jr. xc. That was worst worlds xc in the modern history of wxc.

Look at who finished 2nd in the SENIOR division that year: Sergey Lebid. Look at who finished third in the senior division: Silvio Guerra. Who? So by your account Segei lebed and Silvio Gurra are the two greatest non-African runners in the history of cross country. Guess what, Solinski, Motram, Teg, Rupp will never ever get a silver medal at world xc. Wow, Lebid and Guerra are so much better than any those guys.

This is what I've always suspected. I recall it was crappy weather which probably affected the Africans more than anyone.

But I never knew Silvio Guerra was third in the senior race. Wow, for one he must have been old because I was racing (and beating) him back in 1991. I think he eventually became a 2:10 marathoner but I never knew he was third at World Cross.

hadang wrote:

Will everybody get over Ritz's 3rd place in world jr. xc. That was worst worlds xc in the modern history of wxc.

Look at who finished 2nd in the SENIOR division that year: Sergey Lebid. Look at who finished third in the senior division: Silvio Guerra. Who? So by your account Segei lebed and Silvio Gurra are the two greatest non-African runners in the history of cross country. Guess what, Solinski, Motram, Teg, Rupp will never ever get a silver medal at world xc. Wow, Lebid and Guerra are so much better than any those guys.

Who cares about the senior race? The greatest distance (and cross country) runner of all time was in Ritz's race.

No Drama Llama wrote:

What the hell has Lukas done that would make him the best? He hasn't run unbelievably fast and he hasn't demolished the fields. He also got his doors blown off at NON (yes I know he supposedly going for the record but he didn't get it, did he?)

Lukas is obviously very good and that's great. He's just not the best. I think there were probably 2 guys in the field at NXN who could have beaten him on another day.

Lukas beat Solomon Haile, the 21/22 year old Footlocker champion in a national indoor 5000 record time when he was 15. He destroyed the Footlocker field by +15 seconds, much better than the weak NXN field, including the NXN champion Lutz who was 4th and 22 seconds back. This year Lukas got cut off and spiked so badly he needed stitches, and still made beating Lutz and Cheserek look easy.

You say that like only beating Sage by 4 seconds is something to laugh at. First of all, remember Ritz did that as a junior. Second, Sage gets overlooked because he got beat in that race and because of what came next year, but his name deserves to be listed just below the very best in HS as well. He might not be a contender for the best ever, but his name should at least be considered if one were making a list of the top 10 HS runners ever.

That second place to Ritz is still the second fastest time ever on that course. He's the fifth fastest HS miler of all time. He's probably something like 10-12th on all time 2mile/3200 lists. He ran a 8:42/4:07 3200/1600 double, treating those as kickers races, and making it look easy. Making a laughing stock of a guy who was 6th in one of the fastest FL races of all time. Until Fernandez came along, that double was right up there with the very best ever. Still probably 3rd or 4th on the list. On top of that, I think the only people he lost in his final two years of HS were Jorge Torres (a year older) and Dathan Ritzenhein. For any high school student to have beaten Sage at all that year, by 4 seconds or 40, was a major accomplishment, especially to do it as a junior.

Um, do you know who Sergey Lebid is? I think one could make a very strong case that Lebid is among the best non-African cross country runners ever.

I also don't understand how, whether one misspells his name or not, they spell it two different ways in the paragraph.

Were talking Cross Country here not Track!

Simon Bairu was a beast in Cross Country but never did much on the Track. Don't compare track times to decide who the best cross runner of all time was in high school.

Ritz is hands down the best. He destroyed a highly competitive field 2 years in a row.

Anybody have the video where Ritz demolishes Webb and Hall? In all these years I have only read about it or seen pictures. If someone has a link please post. I am sure everyone on this thread would love to see that video. Thanks alot. It would be a great addition to this thread.

silio guerra, the ecuadorian stud. definitely one of ecuador's greatest distance runners of all time..after rolando vera.

Sorry I should have been more clear. Videos of Footlocker XC 2000 or NCAA XC Nationals 2004 where ritz and hall go neck and neck to the finish line? Thanks.

Here you go!

Click the '99 video too. He is hammering SO hard from like 600m out. Awesome.