Tergat on why non-Africans lose

This is some of the training posted by Renato in the recent thread about the new marathon times. This is for consistent levels of athletes (1:44 800/3:30 1500/13:00 5000/26:40 10000):

This 800/1500 part is not significantly different from what we do where I coach (D1, not high school) for middle distance, BUT the long distance people reading this see it all as obscenely fast--and therein lies the problem. The African distance people still train like middle distance people in the US albeit with somewhat more volume....and the US distance people don't want to do this.

This is not your uncle's Lydiard training program.

The issue I think for those of us who coach is how to build up the bodies of the US distance people so they can handle the load without running out of development time (you have to "get there" by 25-27).

For someone starting in the US at 14-16 at nowhere near the level Kenyans are at around 18-19, it will take YEARS to get there.

Coach D wrote:

For someone starting in the US at 14-16 at nowhere near the level Kenyans are at around 18-19, it will take YEARS to get there.

Regardless of where you are, the place to start is from where you are now.

The only way to get "there", is to begin right now, and to keep heading that direction.

Actually, Coach D., Lydiard went so far as to design special training flats, so his guys could "get out on the road and run fast, at the right time", or so he told us.

Anyone who thinks all of Lydiard's athletes ran nothing but long, easy distance runs is wrong. I see a lot of commonalities between Lydiard's buildup period and the discussions on the Canova thread.

That might be ok for people who maybe want to run (I mean just run, not All-American or Olympic Team member), but for people with enough talent to consider becoming professional one day, you have to prepare yourself to deal with THIS:

This is where a longer term plan has to come into place.

My sense is that too many kids coming to college (and too many coaches coaching them) are too obsessed about ramping up mileage and becoming a "distance runner." And what happens is that they never get prepared for the pace that they will eventually see on the international level, particularly if they just settle for NCAA honors and don't face that level of competition like German has already.

In my mind the more intelligent way of doing it is to compete in NCAA in middle distance like Bob Kennedy did, but with the idea that you're going to move up in distance as a post-collegiate. You get used to running at the faster pace during your NCAA years, then you can up the volume when your body is better developed to handle it.

Coach D wrote:

My sense is that too many kids coming to college (and too many coaches coaching them) are too obsessed about ramping up mileage and becoming a "distance runner." And what happens is that they never get prepared for the pace that they will eventually see on the international level, particularly if they just settle for NCAA honors and don't face that level of competition like German has already.

No. Chris Derrick faced the competition, double All American, and then a week after peak, went out hard at World Jr. Cross. German hung back, was never really in it, and only beat him by 7 seconds.

The place for international experience "at pace" is on the track, not XC. That's a part of the reason Rupp's 13:37 HS in Germany is better than German's 2M or 1600m/3200m double where he just ran even splits and nobody could latch on. And this season, Rupp was running against 13:00 and 13:04 Ethiopians, while German was running against people who in your words "just settle for NCAA honors" and ran his best, like always, when nobody could challenge in his conference mile.

Regardless of what direction you are going, the only way to get "there" is to start from where you are now.

Worrying about how long it will take is of no use at all.

Just turn it around and you got it: They are not the "only" ingredients, but without them, you will fail.You can not say more than that.If you have self-belief, but little talent, then you are limited by your body.If you have talent, but no self-belief, then you are limited by your mind.To be the world best requires a complete package.

turku wrote:

If self-belief and tenacity are the only ingredients required, then I assume the Rift Valley All Stars will show up and win the Olympic Basketball Gold very soon.

It's great that you have so much belief in yourself and your capability. But you sound like you are looking for a delicate balance with a sledge-hammer.I'm all for pushing athletes as hard as possible, when they are ready, but not harder. As long as they progress, without injury and overtraining.What would I rather do? Me personally? I would rather be Tergat, or Haile G., or Keninise Bekele, or Carlos Lopes, or Fernando Mamede, with long careers, and achievements in many different events, rather than a Jim Ryun.Unfortunately, I resemble Popeye more than a Kalenjin warrior, with calves that make body builders jealous. I must simply settle for being the best I can be, rather than being the best in the world.I think if I shot my wad at 25, I would be dissappointed for the rest of my life, forever wondering if I really reached my full potential. Spending 50 years reminiscing how great I once used to be just seems deeply depressing.I would also be highly discouraged if I were plagued with injuries for the majority of my running career. I had a slight bout of PF, which delayed my development for 6 months. This was deeply dissappointing, as I'm not getting any younger.

WDDF wrote:

Yes I do.

Haile G, Sihine and Bekele all train as I said. Komen, Bob K (before going to Marcus) did.

Some burn out, some get injured often, others thrive.

Bottom line.... what would you rather do... be German Hernandez and run 12:45-50 and 7:2? in the next 4-5 years and "burn out" at age 25, or be German Hernandez and have a career that lasts 15 years but runs 12:57-13:05?

And that is IF he burns out. He may very well not.

As the above suggests, I don't think Kenyans really think about what is going to happen next year, nor care. They want to maximize their potential while they can. Most of the time, that is when you are still producing a lot of testosterone (for regenerative purposes) and that falls off a cliff starting mid 20s.

Talent IS self belief, you don't need special physical characteristics.

Most letsrunners truly believe the Kenenisa Bekele would run 48-49 for 400, when in fact he is flat out at 12.5 seconds for the fastest 100m sections of his races.

The fact that he can do this after 24 laps is what makes people believe he can run much faster. So he gets placed on a pedestal instead of being intelligently asessed for his true strengths and weaknesses. This breeds widescale negativity and mythologizing. Where is the new Lydiard to lead us like Moses in exodus from the desert of doom and despair?

Talent IS self belief, you don't need special physical characteristics.

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Ahahhaaaahhhaahhahhhahahahha Ahhahahha!

wellnow wrote:

Talent IS self belief, you don't need special physical characteristics.

Most letsrunners truly believe the Kenenisa Bekele would run 48-49 for 400, when in fact he is flat out at 12.5 seconds for the fastest 100m sections of his races.

The fact that he can do this after 24 laps is what makes people believe he can run much faster. So he gets placed on a pedestal instead of being intelligently asessed for his true strengths and weaknesses. This breeds widescale negativity and mythologizing. Where is the new Lydiard to lead us like Moses in exodus from the desert of doom and despair?

this is truly a retarded post.

now go believe in yourself so you can set a few world records. because you believe.

cute.

Oh geez, you got me. They were untalented nobodies before they got here, right? Lagat was good when he got here. So was Rono. There's no other African who came through the US collegiate system that is anywhere near Lagat, let alone those who stayed in Kenya.

Hugo wrote:

Tell that to Beranrd Lagat or the multitude of Africans who went thru the Ameraican College system and dominated.

thank you

What the heck do you think the Africans are doing while we're going to college and doing homework? They have more time to train than we do. We take little trips to Flagstaff for a training camp where we do nothing but run. Thats what they do all day every day and its government funded. If Fernandez was a Kenyan he'd be at a training center right now running with other elite runners. Instead he's here getting a degree. Is that the right choice for him? Almost definitely. But its why Americans aren't as good.

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Abdi Bile

Nourdine Morceli

Julius Achon

Meb Keflezegi

G Shahanga

...Oh.....forget it, the list goes on and on of Africans that came through the American collegiate system and were world competetive on world level. Guess it didnt slow them down the same way it slowed the Americans. This is not why Americans are not as good.

Face it, there is really no good cultural reason for the African dominance. Getting a scholarship, studying and running is an excellent environment for success.

Funny how America is terrible for distance running because we all sit around playing video games, watching Tv, eating McDonalds. However, we dominate swimming, we have the best cyclist, boxers, sprinters, and most other sports. Just so happens our culture only effects running above 800 meters?

I believe if you placed Ethiopia as a country in the US there would be tons more great Ethiopian runners, especially female.

I'm 7' 1" because I believe in myself.

And Yao is 7'4", because he believes even more.

spud webb?

mugsy?

I belieleve Ricky Rubio will be a believer.

Lebron is a witness?

I big problem with American distance running is the lack of African American participants. They would rather suck on the B squad and play pick up games rather then run.