Your examples are of the most talented athletes in the biggest sports. Jobs, money, wins, are all on the line.
They absolutely should have been punished for their actions, but you should also be able to understand the logic of why they might not have been, given their status and impact. Not saying it is right, but there are understandable reasons for how they may have been treated. You can also find many examples of big name talent that have been punished severely for similar actions. You can't chery pick.
I also don't get the logic of "because others have made bad decisions without consequence, all should be allowed to make bad decisions without consequence:" It's pretty twisted logic that is not in the best interest of individuals, programs or society as a whole.
That being said, those examples bear no resemblance to a group of average guys on a mediocre college cross country team.
Wouldn't exactly call Rashee Rice or Jake Fromm the most talented athletes in sports but okay.
Now, the logic that I don't understand is that you are claiming that "We should punish the mediocre for things that we let the elite get away with".
That is very, very, very, dangerous indeed. Talk about twisted logic. A persons athletic ability should not absolve them from the same punishment a lesser athlete would recieve.
Lastly, NCAA Nationals is these cross country runners version of the CFP. Taking away their ability to reach their dreams because of a party where SOMEONE ELSE made a bad decision is stupid. These captains didn't pry the kid's mouth open and force medicine in. College students are adults, they should be responsible for themselves.
A week suspension would have been understandable. Maybe even a fine, or a suspension for a non-essential meet for National qualifying. "But nuttycombe just happened to be the next meet" is also twisted logic. If the Giants are 9-6 and Daniel Jones kills 8 people on national television two days before, he's playing in that game to make the playoffs. And that's the definition of a mediocre player on a mediocre team.
That duke team was not making nationals regardless of their regular season schedule. They were 7th at the Southeast regional.
Dude, the explicit mission of the NCAA is to promote "lifelong well-being" for all student-athletes.
A college lifestyle factors in to a student-athlete's performance and mental health. Refusing or failing to acknowledge that is not conducive to their well-being.
Believe it or not, but part of being a coach is adjusting to the different needs of all your athletes. Since most athletes on any given team are not going to be conference point scorers, you need to know how to cater to the needs of students whose athletic careers are only a supplement to their academic goals.
I believe Armentrout was a walk-on member of the team. Could that have been a reason that the coach may not have gone above and beyond to help?
Not a sound reason. Walk-ons are members of the team. Coaches have to cater to the needs of all members of a team. Do not take a job unless you are able to meet the needs of all members of your team. Again, as an employee of higher education, this is part of your job description.
Are you implying that a coach at Duke shouldn't be able/expected to cater to all levels of student-athlete on their team? Or do you believe that lifelong well-being can be achieved through neglecting specific needs of individual student-athletes?
I believe Armentrout was a walk-on member of the team. Could that have been a reason that the coach may not have gone above and beyond to help?
Not a sound reason. Walk-ons are members of the team. Coaches have to cater to the needs of all members of a team. Do not take a job unless you are able to meet the needs of all members of your team. Again, as an employee of higher education, this is part of your job description.
Are you implying that a coach at Duke shouldn't be able/expected to cater to all levels of student-athlete on their team? Or do you believe that lifelong well-being can be achieved through neglecting specific needs of individual student-athletes?
that's the talk of a loser. cater to the lowest of the low rather than hold young people to a high standard (also not coming to practice drunk aint that high of a standard.)
You just made them look even worse. They hosted a party and served alcohol to someone who was on medication and should not have been drinking. That person had to go the HOSPITAL and actually could have died.
There's not a coach in the entire nation that wouldn't punish those guys. They aren't martyrs, they're MORONS.
Usually at a party there’s just stuff to drink. If someone drank on meds that’s on them. Obviously as hosts you should look out for trouble, but one person on meds who needed help is too bad, but doesn’t sound like things were crazy out of control.
In general, expecting college kids not to party is crazy. I’d be curious to know if they were just being social and either not drinking or just a beer b/c of the race.
Not a sound reason. Walk-ons are members of the team. Coaches have to cater to the needs of all members of a team. Do not take a job unless you are able to meet the needs of all members of your team. Again, as an employee of higher education, this is part of your job description.
Are you implying that a coach at Duke shouldn't be able/expected to cater to all levels of student-athlete on their team? Or do you believe that lifelong well-being can be achieved through neglecting specific needs of individual student-athletes?
Do not join a team if you refuse to follow all of that team's rules.
Coach shouldn't spend 8x as much time dealing with a drunk, deranged walk-on than she is spending with her All American athletes.
If you aren't running fast, you have a bad attitude, and you are so needy that your teammates can't get the attention they need, then why exactly are you on the team again?
Having a rich dad paying full tuition doesn't entitle you to a spot on the team.
Not a sound reason. Walk-ons are members of the team. Coaches have to cater to the needs of all members of a team. Do not take a job unless you are able to meet the needs of all members of your team. Again, as an employee of higher education, this is part of your job description.
Are you implying that a coach at Duke shouldn't be able/expected to cater to all levels of student-athlete on their team? Or do you believe that lifelong well-being can be achieved through neglecting specific needs of individual student-athletes?
that's the talk of a loser. cater to the lowest of the low rather than hold young people to a high standard (also not coming to practice drunk aint that high of a standard.)
Did any of you nitwits even study the 2023 Duke cross country schedule?
The party thrown was Saturday NIGHT, the evening following the UVA Invite.
Nuttycombe wasn't till 3 weeks later = plenty of time for hangovers to subside.
Actually 9/23/2023 was the perfect night during season to throw a party.\
I have included the 2023 Duke schedule for you nitwits to peruse.
You just made them look even worse. They hosted a party and served alcohol to someone who was on medication and should not have been drinking. That person had to go the HOSPITAL and actually could have died.
There's not a coach in the entire nation that wouldn't punish those guys. They aren't martyrs, they're MORONS.
Usually at a party there’s just stuff to drink. If someone drank on meds that’s on them. Obviously as hosts you should look out for trouble, but one person on meds who needed help is too bad, but doesn’t sound like things were crazy out of control.
In general, expecting college kids not to party is crazy. I’d be curious to know if they were just being social and either not drinking or just a beer b/c of the race.
A teammate illegally provided alcohol to a minor and that person nearly died.
Duke team members called sober people "Sallys" in an earlier post, so it's very likely this person was peer pressured into drinking and would have been made fun of if she hadn't.
The said there were over 100 people at this party. That's crazy out of control.
There's a lot more to it than that. You are editing and slanting in Duke's favor.
I recommend reading the entirety
Read the entire thing. Only thing I forgot to add was that they threw a party right before Nuttycomb and it seems like all of the non senior top 7 decided not to attend.
Reckhart isn't that great of a coach but the only thing this shows is the the 2024 Duke men's class was a massive cancer to the team
I did read the whole thing. Party was not “right before”. Article said Sept. 24 and meet was Oct. 13. The article also says the team uniformly supported these guys, so you’re showing a massive slant calling them cancers. Agree with the previous poster that the summary is super slanted.
Nothing about the runners who felt unsupported and those who left the program. Oh and all but one athlete signing the complaint against the coach. Seems clear the situation wasn’t working out and the coach had to go.
that's the talk of a loser. cater to the lowest of the low rather than hold young people to a high standard (also not coming to practice drunk aint that high of a standard.)
Did any of you nitwits even study the 2023 Duke cross country schedule?
The party thrown was Saturday NIGHT, the evening following the UVA Invite.
Nuttycombe wasn't till 3 weeks later = plenty of time for hangovers to subside.
Actually 9/23/2023 was the perfect night during season to throw a party.\
I have included the 2023 Duke schedule for you nitwits to peruse.
The issue wasn't throwing a party too close to a big meet, the issue was they threw a party that got SHUT DOWN by the POLICE after serving alcohol to an UNDERAGE student who required an ambulance to be taken to the hospital.
The police then notified the Dean of Student Life, and at that point the coaches are REQUIRED to issue a punishment.
It doesn't matter how many days before Nuttycombe it was. They received a 1 game suspension and Nuttycombe was the next meet.
I get it she stopped his practice when she realized the kid was drunk. But she was dealing with a kid who said he was in trouble. When you are training at a D1 level, your instinct for self preservation is typically high - and for good reason. If I was called upon to run mile repeats between 4:17 - 4:25 - not a great workout for me fitness wise- I darn well would have been petrified of drinking the night before. If you see a kid who tells you he is troubled all kinds of alarm bells should go off - this is a kid who was on a destructive path. He certainly needed help from professionals, and not a call to religion. And making him run laps for a missed practice is questionable in terms of efficacy. I realize the coach was in a tough spot, but this doesn't wear well.
Right before my brother died, a great athlete and student at UNC, posted on here that he though the West Campus social disease worked against Duke athletes- if anything - it is more socially active today. He married a Duke student and was at Duke quite a bit. Phi Beta Kappa in math and every bit equal to the best students at Duke - and he made me understand why some don't like Duke. Any coach has to understand this as part of the territory. Of course, I think Coach Jermyn does.
I don't think this is confined to the XC team either. The men's LAX team is ridiculously talented - yet they play - and this is not in dispute - very inconsistently. Scratch the surface and one will likely see the social aspect arising. The year after a UVA lax member murdered a lovely young woman on the LAX team, the team got together and swore off drinking for the next season. They even kicked off one of their stars off the team in enforcing this commitment. They won the NCAA title that year. I was not surprised.
I get it she stopped his practice when she realized the kid was drunk. But she was dealing with a kid who said he was in trouble. When you are training at a D1 level, your instinct for self preservation is typically high - and for good reason. If I was called upon to run mile repeats between 4:17 - 4:25 - not a great workout for me fitness wise- I darn well would have been petrified of drinking the night before. If you see a kid who tells you he is troubled all kinds of alarm bells should go off - this is a kid who was on a destructive path. He certainly needed help from professionals, and not a call to religion. And making him run laps for a missed practice is questionable in terms of efficacy. I realize the coach was in a tough spot, but this doesn't wear well.
He wasn't being punished, she was just making him do the practice that he missed that morning. She was literally working overtime to make sure this athlete got his practice in and she was there to COACH AND HELP him.
It sounds like she called the kid once she learned he wasn't at practice and told the kid to immediately come to practice.
There is no indication that she gave him a harder practice than was prescribed to the rest of the team.
Dalia Frias has removed the post now because she subsequently transferred to Oregon. But during the lengthy Instagram post when she left Duke for UCLA she explained that while she made many friends at Duke she had to consider her overall situation and happiness.
That could have meant west vs east, or coaches, who knows? It was quite abrupt.
It’s been years since I’ve been part of the team and I don’t know most of the current coaches and none of the current athletes. But I have a few thoughts.
1) It’s (unfortunately) the case the coaches will care most about the athletes that will score or are close to scoring in big meets. That’s what results in team success and their own success. Hopefully the coaches still care about the student athletes who aren’t performing that highly. The kid who showed up drunk to practice hopefully got real help. I’m not sure what the full story is, but hopefully Coach said more than go find religion. Some coaches seem to care about athletes in general (Duke has had some really good assistants that get to know everyone well - naming them would probably out me but they were ex runners who came back to briefly or more than briefly coach).
2) College parties are normal. I’d say every team in the ACC has them and most will have at least 50% of the underclassmen drinking. 3 weeks out from a big meet doesn’t raise a red flag to me if everyone kept it under control. The team member who ended up getting EMSed should have probably not consumed alcohol, and her friends should have probably stepped in sooner if things were getting bad. But at least they called a medic which is the right thing to do. If everyone was getting black out drunk, then it shouldn’t have been an in season party, but if we are talking about 2-3 drinks then I don’t see a major issue here. If rules are that if a party gets busted, team members are out for 1+ games, then it is what it is and they should accept the punishment.
3) Duke athletics other than FB/BB will struggle as most people end up focusing on academics to get great $100k+ jobs out of college. I think there’s a noticeable drop off when classes get tough and job recruiting starts that you end up seeing where people give up a bit and focus on their next path. Theres always a few that take the party/social route and rush a fraternity or go out a lot and never reach their high school times as well. But I’m guessing this is more college wide than just Duke.
4) If I remember correctly, Ronda Riley and Wilburn had a falling out which caused her to leave and was at the similar time where Norm stepped down and Wilburn now had full control of the program. Wilburn never seemed to like the distance program and there was always a bit of a power struggle with him and Norm when he reported to Norm given his athletes were better but Norm controlled the program. Granted, Wilburn clearly has some successful athletes and I think (unfortunately for distance runners and fans) the way for Duke track to be successful is to focus on the more niche events like multi and jumps given how strong and deep the ACC is in mid distance and distance. He’s always been a bit slimy to me and gets a bit too close with athletes where it’s a bit unprofessional with his favoritism. He had a somewhat messy divorce too which was weird given how involved his ex-wife was with some team members too pre-divorce. Either way, he got Duke women a few titles which is better than most thought he could do.
5) Kevin Jermyn was the last coach women’s distance had any real success under, but back in the day a large portion of the women’s team had eating disorders and he got the blame for it. Maybe it should have been directed to the captains or the individual athletes instead of him. I’m not sure. Hopefully this time around that is better while the team still has success.
6) it’s surprising that the entire team hated the coach, other than 1 athlete (I’m guessing Emily because she let her shill hair gummies and other products at practice). I’m old enough to remember the athletes did something similar on Christine Engle, the old distance coach that was also let go.
7) the guys should have kept their Duke scholarship and not ran. I’m guessing Shawn wanted it as a 5th year scholarship for a grad transfer who could score and just used this incident as an excuse.
Not a sound reason. Walk-ons are members of the team. Coaches have to cater to the needs of all members of a team. Do not take a job unless you are able to meet the needs of all members of your team. Again, as an employee of higher education, this is part of your job description.
Are you implying that a coach at Duke shouldn't be able/expected to cater to all levels of student-athlete on their team? Or do you believe that lifelong well-being can be achieved through neglecting specific needs of individual student-athletes?
You don't think the coach devotes more time and energy to the stars than a random walk on?
It's the same in life - high performers get more attention and more leeway
Also there’s nothing wrong with not signing the letter if you’re having success, but I wonder what the team dynamics were like that 1 team member out of about 30 refused to sign.
For one Duke sucks, these kids need to get a grip, especially Armentrout. Secondly, Duke is a religious school, don’t attend if you don’t want to have to TAKE CLASSES and be around other religious people. Thirdly, don’t be on a XCTF team if you’re partying and not following team rules. Sounds like these kids are as soft as can be. Typical Duke
I believe Armentrout was a walk-on member of the team. Could that have been a reason that the coach may not have gone above and beyond to help?
Not a sound reason. Walk-ons are members of the team. Coaches have to cater to the needs of all members of a team. Do not take a job unless you are able to meet the needs of all members of your team. Again, as an employee of higher education, this is part of your job description.
Are you implying that a coach at Duke shouldn't be able/expected to cater to all levels of student-athlete on their team? Or do you believe that lifelong well-being can be achieved through neglecting specific needs of individual student-athletes?
Coaches don’t have to “cater” to any athlete wtf world you living in. Respect and coach them fairly yes, treat them equally and cater to them no
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