Actually 50.5 / 49.5 would be best. Really 50/50 is most efficient, but the half a second is accounting for the start acceleration time.
Wanyonyi could run really fast with an even/negative split. Still find it hard to believe it’s the fastest way to do it though.
It’s very hard to do. You have to know your physical limits so well that you run out of gas just as you finish. It’s much more feasible to run out of gas early and slow down. But from a pure efficiency perspective, a constant pace is most efficient. It’s just hard to do it perfectly and still empty the tank.
No, you don't. Elliott ran 1:46x and never beat 50 for the 400.
However 1:46 is a slow 800 for an athlete expected to beat 3:26 for the 1500. Unless they are doped to the gills.
How many times did Elliott race 400m while in 1:46 shape?
He rarely raced it because it wasn't his distance. That is the case with most md runners. But there was no way he was going to get near 47secs. If he could have he would have run 1:44 for the 800 before Snell did.
It doesn't matter how much stamina an athlete may have. Without speed they cannot run a fast 800m.
That isn't what I said. Stop obfuscating.
By the way, you speak rather fondly of Juantorena. Do you think he was clean?
You said I was wrong when I said the 800 requires a given level of speed and not just endurance. You are wrong. That isn't obfuscating.
I haven't spoken "fondly" of Juantorena. He came from a communist nation. In his era doping was pretty much the norm for the Soviet bloc, so you can draw your own conclusions.
I agree. There was a thread about running an 800m world record with a negative split, very interesting. Most posts disagreed with the idea that it might be possible. I still think it is the best way to try it.
It’s been done, for 880 yards. On June 10th, 1966 in Terry Haute Indiana by a 19 year American named Jim Ryun. He spilt 53.3/51.6 for a WR 880 (1:44.3 800 but no WR credited to him).
But who else has broken the record with a negative split? It appears to be the exception that proves the rule, that it generally isn't the best way to do it.
Wanyonyi could run really fast with an even/negative split. Still find it hard to believe it’s the fastest way to do it though.
It’s very hard to do. You have to know your physical limits so well that you run out of gas just as you finish. It’s much more feasible to run out of gas early and slow down. But from a pure efficiency perspective, a constant pace is most efficient. It’s just hard to do it perfectly and still empty the tank.
Constant pace in the 800 isn't economical, as it requires a constant and considerable increase in effort to maintain pace. That appears to be less efficient than starting fast and holding on - if possible.
How many times did Elliott race 400m while in 1:46 shape?
He rarely raced it because it wasn't his distance. That is the case with most md runners. But there was no way he was going to get near 47secs. If he could have he would have run 1:44 for the 800 before Snell did.
Are we talking about the great Sir Peter Elliott from Great Britain ? I think he chose not to dip under 1.40 for the 800, because he was a patriot and a humble man. He felt bad enough already, having eclipsed his largely forgotten country-men Cram, Coe and Ovett. - and so didn't want to rub it in by breaking world records. In the same way he was gentleman and nearly always let others win.
I remember lining up for a kebab beside a motorway in Norwich, back in 1990. Just ahead of me in the queue, I could see a hulking athlete from behind, in singlet and shorts. This man had a flat-top hair-cut and I suddenly felt quite nervous, thinking this was perhaps an opportunity to meet the great Carl Lewis !! ...but after he'd got his order from the van, he turned around and I could see it was actually Peter Elliott. I must admit I felt betrayed by the hair-cut and am ashamed to say I put out my leg and tripped Sir Peter. His kebab dropped on to the motor-way and was run over by a truck. He knew it was me who tripped him and he decide to chase me, but fortunately I was able to out-run him.....
I guess 45.00 speed would be enough for a 1:40.00 800m. This year nobody is getting close to this, but the least unrealistic prospects would be Arop and Sumner.
I would love for Håvard Bentdal Ingvaldsen to give it a shot. Even more than Tebogo or Warholm. A lean, non-muscular type with long legs and 44.39 PB. Even more so, because he has already tried to run 800m in 2022. During an indoor meet in Norway he won 400m in 46.50 and also 800m in 2.01,71 next day.
He rarely raced it because it wasn't his distance. That is the case with most md runners. But there was no way he was going to get near 47secs. If he could have he would have run 1:44 for the 800 before Snell did.
Are we talking about the great Sir Peter Elliott from Great Britain ? I think he chose not to dip under 1.40 for the 800, because he was a patriot and a humble man. He felt bad enough already, having eclipsed his largely forgotten country-men Cram, Coe and Ovett. - and so didn't want to rub it in by breaking world records. In the same way he was gentleman and nearly always let others win.
I remember lining up for a kebab beside a motorway in Norwich, back in 1990. Just ahead of me in the queue, I could see a hulking athlete from behind, in singlet and shorts. This man had a flat-top hair-cut and I suddenly felt quite nervous, thinking this was perhaps an opportunity to meet the great Carl Lewis !! ...but after he'd got his order from the van, he turned around and I could see it was actually Peter Elliott. I must admit I felt betrayed by the hair-cut and am ashamed to say I put out my leg and tripped Sir Peter. His kebab dropped on to the motor-way and was run over by a truck. He knew it was me who tripped him and he decide to chase me, but fortunately I was able to out-run him.....
How could I have been talking about Peter Elliott, who competed two decades after Snell? Herb Elliott - if your knowledge extends back that far.
Are we talking about the great Sir Peter Elliott from Great Britain ? I think he chose not to dip under 1.40 for the 800, because he was a patriot and a humble man. He felt bad enough already, having eclipsed his largely forgotten country-men Cram, Coe and Ovett. - and so didn't want to rub it in by breaking world records. In the same way he was gentleman and nearly always let others win.
I remember lining up for a kebab beside a motorway in Norwich, back in 1990. Just ahead of me in the queue, I could see a hulking athlete from behind, in singlet and shorts. This man had a flat-top hair-cut and I suddenly felt quite nervous, thinking this was perhaps an opportunity to meet the great Carl Lewis !! ...but after he'd got his order from the van, he turned around and I could see it was actually Peter Elliott. I must admit I felt betrayed by the hair-cut and am ashamed to say I put out my leg and tripped Sir Peter. His kebab dropped on to the motor-way and was run over by a truck. He knew it was me who tripped him and he decide to chase me, but fortunately I was able to out-run him.....
How could I have been talking about Peter Elliott, who competed two decades after Snell? Herb Elliott - if your knowledge extends back that far.
...I must admit that Peter Elliott looks younger than Peter Snell in 2024. - Of course I know of Peter's dad, Herb...he retired at 22 and let down a nation with his laziness. ...but admittedly he was laser-focused on something else by then and that resulted in him fathering 6 children. As for Herb's 1.46.7, I believe if he dropped that time by around 6.71 seconds, he would have been in the conversation about the fabled sub 1.40.00-second, 800 meters. I often wish someone like Haile Gebrselassie tried kicking for 800 meters, to see what happened. I imagine he'd feel fresher than normal, if he hadn't just run 9200 meters immediately prior.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
That 1972 Olympic Trials race where Wottle tied the world record and Ryun came in 4th was awesome! Too bad you can't find it on Youtube or anywhere else. There used to be bits and pieces of it (some black and white, some in color, some slow-mo) but no longer.
If anyone has that tape or knows where to find it, I'd love to see it!
How could I have been talking about Peter Elliott, who competed two decades after Snell? Herb Elliott - if your knowledge extends back that far.
...I must admit that Peter Elliott looks younger than Peter Snell in 2024. - Of course I know of Peter's dad, Herb...he retired at 22 and let down a nation with his laziness. ...but admittedly he was laser-focused on something else by then and that resulted in him fathering 6 children. As for Herb's 1.46.7, I believe if he dropped that time by around 6.71 seconds, he would have been in the conversation about the fabled sub 1.40.00-second, 800 meters. I often wish someone like Haile Gebrselassie tried kicking for 800 meters, to see what happened. I imagine he'd feel fresher than normal, if he hadn't just run 9200 meters immediately prior.
"Okay, so the 800 is more of an extended sprint when run at the highest level. But does that mean positive splits are the only way to achieve excellence?
Yes, says exercise physiologist and Science of Sport blogger Ross Tucker. In 2007, Tucker analyzed the 26 men’s world records set for 800 meters in the modern era. He found that 24 of the 26 were set with positive splits. In fact, the last time a world record was set with a negative split was in 1972, when Dave Wottle ran 1:44.3 to bring gold home to the United States. His last lap of 51.4 is also the fastest ever in a world-record race, despite the fact that record has fallen more than 3 seconds in the last four decades. The second fastest last lap was run in 1966."
"Okay, so the 800 is more of an extended sprint when run at the highest level. But does that mean positive splits are the only way to achieve excellence?
Yes, says exercise physiologist and Science of Sport blogger Ross Tucker. In 2007, Tucker analyzed the 26 men’s world records set for 800 meters in the modern era. He found that 24 of the 26 were set with positive splits. In fact, the last time a world record was set with a negative split was in 1972, when Dave Wottle ran 1:44.3 to bring gold home to the United States. His last lap of 51.4 is also the fastest ever in a world-record race, despite the fact that record has fallen more than 3 seconds in the last four decades. The second fastest last lap was run in 1966."
EVEN split is optimal efficiency. What everyone fails to grasp is that this is HARD to do. That's why 24 of 26 were positive. But I bet some of them were not that heavily positive.
By the way, you speak rather fondly of Juantorena. Do you think he was clean?
You said I was wrong when I said the 800 requires a given level of speed and not just endurance. You are wrong. That isn't obfuscating.
I haven't spoken "fondly" of Juantorena. He came from a communist nation. In his era doping was pretty much the norm for the Soviet bloc, so you can draw your own conclusions.
That is not what I said. All events require a certain level of speed (some more, some less.) What I have been saying is 1:46 is not a measure of "speed" it is a measure of "stamina". Two 1500m men may both have 800m PBs of 1:46, while one of them can run 100m in 11.5 and the other in only 12.0; the one with the 11.5 100m PB has more speed than the one who can run only 12.0. A distance of 800m is a distance where "stamina" (the ability to sustain an intense effort) is the determining factor. This may seem like simply an exercise in semantics but it is important to use the correct terms for the characteristics they apply to, otherwise when we discuss/argue performance we won't be on the "same page" which leads to confusion. Another example is how many (most?, all?) of the young middle distance runners talk about doing "strength work" when they run intense intervals - maybe they know what that means but such misuse of terminology only confuses serious discussions of training and performance.
...I must admit that Peter Elliott looks younger than Peter Snell in 2024. - Of course I know of Peter's dad, Herb...he retired at 22 and let down a nation with his laziness. ...but admittedly he was laser-focused on something else by then and that resulted in him fathering 6 children. As for Herb's 1.46.7, I believe if he dropped that time by around 6.71 seconds, he would have been in the conversation about the fabled sub 1.40.00-second, 800 meters. I often wish someone like Haile Gebrselassie tried kicking for 800 meters, to see what happened. I imagine he'd feel fresher than normal, if he hadn't just run 9200 meters immediately prior.
It’s very hard to do. You have to know your physical limits so well that you run out of gas just as you finish. It’s much more feasible to run out of gas early and slow down. But from a pure efficiency perspective, a constant pace is most efficient. It’s just hard to do it perfectly and still empty the tank.
Constant pace in the 800 isn't economical, as it requires a constant and considerable increase in effort to maintain pace. That appears to be less efficient than starting fast and holding on - if possible.
I do not understand that. Given is an 800m runner with 45s speed. If he runs the first lap in 49, it is more physically demanding (higher lactate levels) than if it were a 50.5. For this reason, all second laps are significantly slower. Ross Tucker's study only provides empirical evidence of what we can all see: the athletes start like firefighters in the event of a disaster, and there is a stressful battle for the best position in the inner lane. That's part of the event. It is therefore very difficult to run the individually optimal first lap, which at the same time leaves the highest possible reserves for the second lap. The previous world records were achieved under these circumstances. Ross Tucker gives no physiological explanation, right?
But we are talking about a world record that would theoretically be possible with a negative split, precisely because an athlete plans it and because the race allows it. When was the last 800m race with the announcement of a world record attempt? With organized pacemakers? Wave light technology?
"Okay, so the 800 is more of an extended sprint when run at the highest level. But does that mean positive splits are the only way to achieve excellence?
Yes, says exercise physiologist and Science of Sport blogger Ross Tucker. In 2007, Tucker analyzed the 26 men’s world records set for 800 meters in the modern era. He found that 24 of the 26 were set with positive splits. In fact, the last time a world record was set with a negative split was in 1972, when Dave Wottle ran 1:44.3 to bring gold home to the United States. His last lap of 51.4 is also the fastest ever in a world-record race, despite the fact that record has fallen more than 3 seconds in the last four decades. The second fastest last lap was run in 1966."
EVEN split is optimal efficiency. What everyone fails to grasp is that this is HARD to do. That's why 24 of 26 were positive. But I bet some of them were not that heavily positive.
Even split is harder - which is why it isn't typical. So it isn't "optimal efficiency".
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