Your Bonds take just made the opposite argument. Yes Bonds was a HOF before the drugs. But the drugs made him all time HR champ, a legendary status if BALCO hadn’t been uncovered.
People consistently underestimate how much better Bonds (in 2001-2004) was than any other player in the history of baseball. His stats in that era were truly absurd. No one else is even close. The PEDs really did make a difference for him.
What about Kenyans like Kip Keino and Henry Rono before the drug eras.
I think the difference is- that's two people. The problem now is the dominance, the large numbers of Kenyans dominating distance races from 10k-marathons.
ck3237 made me look up the history. I looked at the Olympic (mid) distances, specifically the numbers of Kenyans in the top 10 decade by decade, and pre and since AIU and pre EPO:
P.S. Not double checked, and I went with nationality as per the IAAF lists. Yes I know, so far there are only 4 years in the 20s, so the numbers might change, but that's the same for every nation.
ck3237 made me look up the history. I looked at the Olympic (mid) distances, specifically the numbers of Kenyans in the top 10 decade by decade, and pre and since AIU and pre EPO:
P.S. Not double checked, and I went with nationality as per the IAAF lists. Yes I know, so far there are only 4 years in the 20s, so the numbers might change, but that's the same for every nation.
By what standard in the 10,000? It is not raced for time often anymore except for on the roads.
What about Kenyans like Kip Keino and Henry Rono before the drug eras.
Keino was just about as obvious as it gets. Literally jumps out of a (Mexican) hospital bed, sprints to the stadium, then destroys arguably the greatest miler in history. To be fair, Ryun might have had a chance if he had followed Keino's pace, but he believed that Keino was literally about to drop dead on the track.
Kenyan athletics went from zero to massive success almost overnight after a Dutch/British 'sports scientist' who invented the Kenyan 'natural born runner myth'. In 1968, the Kenyan team lead by Keino sacked him for 'taking all the glory', and suddenly their results absolutely bombed, including David Rudisha's dad. Keino had to humiliatingly get on his knees and beg the Dutch manager to come back, which he did, and then Keino runs the sea level equivalent of 3:22...in 1968 off of a stay in hospital.
Imagine if Steve Ovett had climbed out of his hospital bed in LA for the mens 1500 final and front ran his way to victory in 3:22? Then decades later was charged with embezling millions of dollars away from young British Olympic hopefuls to his personal bank account. Would there be one or two people here occasionally throwing doping accusations against him? Or would they be maintaining that Ovett was proof that British athletes were genetically superior despite 300 British distance running doping busts, with 200 more to come in the next few months?
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By what standard in the 10,000? It is not raced for time often anymore except for on the roads.
Everything is sorted by time (per decade, or all times etc.). I might add the top 5 and top 20 to double check for the trends, and maybe the steeple, but that will have to wait.
I vaguely recall that someone counted the Kenyan medals per Olympic in some older thread - maybe someone remembers that thread name or has the link.
Kenyan athletics went from zero to massive success almost overnight after a Dutch/British 'sports scientist' who invented the Kenyan 'natural born runner myth'. In 1968, the Kenyan team lead by Keino sacked him for 'taking all the glory', and suddenly their results absolutely bombed, including David Rudisha's dad. Keino had to humiliatingly get on his knees and beg the Dutch manager to come back, which he did, and then Keino runs the sea level equivalent of 3:22...in 1968 off of a stay in hospital.
Imagine if Steve Ovett had climbed out of his hospital bed in LA for the mens 1500 final and front ran his way to victory in 3:22? Then decades later was charged with embezling millions of dollars away from young British Olympic hopefuls to his personal bank account. Would there be one or two people here occasionally throwing doping accusations against him? Or would they be maintaining that Ovett was proof that British athletes were genetically superior despite 300 British distance running doping busts, with 200 more to come in the next few months?
Don't forget: this is about ADAK busts, not AIU. ADAK hasn't busted a single athlete of Jepchirchir's calibre yet - that's always AIU (Kipruto, Kiptum, Kipsang and so on and so on).
The reason is AIU and ADAK are working together to cast their net as wide as possible and avoid overlap. AIU doesn't have the resources to test the thousands of lower tier athletes plying local circuits. This board will have a ball discussing household names like James Gikunga Karanja and Esther Birundu Borura and still wonder why Kenya's conveyor belt of talent isn't slowing down.
The "conveyor belt of talent" hasn't slowed down because it is still doping - as these busts show.
Haven't you got a better thread for your mentally ill musings?
There are enough doping deniers and fake Kenyans on this thread that it's pretty close to the 'loony threshold' as it is.
If it crosses that line (and you're more than capable of pushing that limit alone), the advanced lunatic detecting AI that letsrun uses will automatically delete the thread.
I didn't drag the thread in this direction. Others did. I will reply to smears with facts however.
Says one of the leading anti-Semites on the boards.
The 'argument' that Kenyans have some special genetic adaptations for distance running is based chiefly on all the dozens of sub 2:10 marathoners.
No, it's based mainly on the thousands of Kenyan distance runners who have won hundreds of races and placed high in thousands all over the world since well over 60 years.
There won't be any "decimation" Coevett. Plenty of clean runners ready to step in. This is just the worst stage of the "it-will-get-worse-before-it-gets-better" prediction by the AIU head. It's the actual weeding out of the lower rungs of road runninghas happened with track runners who rarely get busted these days despite increased testing.
So your favourite event, the 800m, will see even more competition for Varicose Burgin.
If I had just seen 50 of my countrymen busted for doping I would be embarrassed to say there will be plenty take their place. They have shown how they do it. Running 'clean' isn't how.
Everything is sorted by time (per decade, or all times etc.). I might add the top 5 and top 20 to double check for the trends, and maybe the steeple, but that will have to wait.
I vaguely recall that someone counted the Kenyan medals per Olympic in some older thread - maybe someone remembers that thread name or has the link.
I would suggest including road times in your 10K calculations. The track times aren't a very accurate snapshot, and there is no money to be made running track 10Ks besides Worlds so it is not run. Alternatively the Half Marathon is probably a more competitive event (by time) outside of the Worlds 10K at this juncture.
Kenyan athletics went from zero to massive success almost overnight after a Dutch/British 'sports scientist' who invented the Kenyan 'natural born runner myth'. In 1968, the Kenyan team lead by Keino sacked him for 'taking all the glory', and suddenly their results absolutely bombed, including David Rudisha's dad. Keino had to humiliatingly get on his knees and beg the Dutch manager to come back, which he did, and then Keino runs the sea level equivalent of 3:22...in 1968 off of a stay in hospital.
Imagine if Steve Ovett had climbed out of his hospital bed in LA for the mens 1500 final and front ran his way to victory in 3:22? Then decades later was charged with embezling millions of dollars away from young British Olympic hopefuls to his personal bank account. Would there be one or two people here occasionally throwing doping accusations against him? Or would they be maintaining that Ovett was proof that British athletes were genetically superior despite 300 British distance running doping busts, with 200 more to come in the next few months?
Coevett we respect your passion for the sport, but 3:22? At 7,400 feet, for a well-trained athlete from altitude maybe it's 2-3 seconds max. 12 seconds is ludicrous. Do you think Jim Ryun who admits he was completely compromised at altitude was running a 3:25 equivalent? Please.
I understand Keino was sick and told to stay in bed throughout Mexico City, but I don't see anything about a hospital substantiated at all. Doctors would visit him where he was staying.
I would suggest including road times in your 10K calculations. The track times aren't a very accurate snapshot, and there is no money to be made running track 10Ks besides Worlds so it is not run. Alternatively the Half Marathon is probably a more competitive event (by time) outside of the Worlds 10K at this juncture.
I'm not too sure that changes what those stats are really showing though.
What jumps out at me is that Kenya was a decent distance running nation until EPO came on to the scene, and then after that they completely dominated.
How does fiddling around with road 10k rankings and half marathons change this?
Also it seems to show, albeit with not complete reliability given it's only 2023, a slight downturn in their fortunes. Maybe because they're doing at least the minimum of testing perhaps?
I'm not too sure that changes what those stats are really showing though.
What jumps out at me is that Kenya was a decent distance running nation until EPO came on to the scene, and then after that they completely dominated.
How does fiddling around with road 10k rankings and half marathons change this?
Also it seems to show, albeit with not complete reliability given it's only 2023, a slight downturn in their fortunes. Maybe because they're doing at least the minimum of testing perhaps?
I mean your name is trollism...
Renato has explained how Kenyans got pushed into the marathon, and became a powerhouse. You could extend this also to how European coaches/agents (Kim McDonald who managed Steve Ovett and the like) came into Kenya and invested in the athletes with training camps and more in the 90s. So is it EPO or investment from the West? Both? To put it completely on one or the other is naive.
"Minimum of testing" is rich when they are subject to *more* testing by the rules (and deservedly so based on the number of posititve tests).
What does fiddling around with Road 10K/HMs do? It actually goes to where most distance-oriented Kenyan runners are pursuing their living, if not in the Marathon (or both). Just about the only 10Ks most top Kenyans would run on the Track are if they are paid to for a Japanese corporate team, qualifying for a World championships at altitude (not fast), or at the global championship.
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