Explain Like I'm 5: Why should I make my 800 guy do lots of long runs?

Also, an understanding of the different non-aerobic energy systems is something the vast majority of distance runners lack. That's why everybody on here has a different definition of "speed work." This chart I think is pretty valid.

https://sites.google.com/site/vpcogsprint/coaching-info/sprint-training/energy-systems?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F&showPrintDialog=1

Thanks for the links! The one for Tuka's training is just your local file path, but I managed to find it elsewhere. It's not all in English, but I can piece together bits of the Italian and use Google translate as well.

https://pajulahti.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Amel-Tuka-2015-Inglese.pdf

1) "Speed work". I lose my mind when I hear people say they're doing speed work but it's something like 400 repeats at mile pace.

2) I just glanced over some of this, turns out I watched some of the Grigg stuff a LONG time ago, but it seems vaguely familiar.

3) My remaining question is, for the super duper serious speedsters, like Jonathan Jones, some here are suggesting there's minimal if zero easy or continuous tempo type of work. I'm really doubtful of that. I'm positive he's not banging out 5 miles @ 5:00 pace, but certainly he jogs a few miles here and there. Does things like 5x4min @ idk 5:30 pace. Do you have any thoughts.

Send him to another coach. Anyone

and a '25-minute solid-state run' is not a long run

I've seen a few Jonathan Jones interviews, here's one:

Despite being on a Texas squad that's loaded with 400m and 800m runners, he largely trains alone as the 400 guys can't do his volume, and the 800 guys can't come anywhere close to him from a speed perspective. It wasn't stated in that interview but another one I saw I think he mentioned he was basically doing 400m training with longer reps. Not much in terms of easy jogging.

BTW, based on my several posts here it might seem like I'm saying the 800m is a sprint and 800m runners don't need any mileage.
I'm moreso only posting this way because I'm trying to show that there's been quite a lot of success doing things that are basically the exact opposite of what's recommended for the "traditional" 800m runner. The exaggerated version of that could be... (You're a distance runner like everyone else. You run cross country. The month before the race you add a couple fast 200s. You just happen to naturally have faster speed than the other distance runners and you don't ever work on it.)

My actual opinion is that 800m training is highly individualized to the athlete. I do still lean towards the speed side... I care more about a 400m PR than I do a mile PR because well, look at the top level of the 800m today! These guys suck at the mile!

I largely agree with the guy who posted all of those docs, and those match a more general 4/8 program (Which JJ, or Anna Hall are obviously not)

Agreed on everything. So for the OP, if he's still reading, could we conclude the following?

* For the vast, vast majority of 400/800 runners, you NEED some form of easy running and moderate aerobic sessions. Whether you call it tempos or fartleks or whatever, doesn't matter. SOME mileage has to be done.

* If you're a supreme freak, one of God's own prototypes, a high-powered mutant
of some kind never even considered for mass production, too weird to
live, and too rare to die, then maybe you won't need this aerobic stimulus. This applies to so few people that it's really not worth considering.

I agree, but 6-7mi @ 7:00/mi is for a 4/8 guy ;)

Your response is pretty much spot on. I ran 1:56 in high school and the week I pr'd I did 300's 2 days and a 5 mile run and 3 mile run on the other days. Race day was Saturday. I probably had a second or two more in me the day I pr'd but there was no one with me from 500 on. The eventual state champ was in the heat before me and ran 1:53. I digress though. I ended up walking on at a Pac-10 university, was thrown into the cross country program, and got every injury in the book. I got down to 1:54 but the training load was too much for me. My 1:56 came off of 8 1/2 months of basketball training as I was a starter on varsity and 3 1/2 months of track training. Mainly intervals. I thought running year round was going to improve my performance greatly but the emphasis on distance was very detrimental to my performance.

If you read the sub 1:50 thread, the primary poster, OldSub4, mentions that he dropped HUGE time in highschool (I think 1:56 to 1:51) when he played basketball for a season. He mentioned massively increasing his vertical. No coincidence that power can be just as important, if not more important, than "endurance" in such an event.

Jesus don't hurt this kid's confidence with those insane workouts.

Sorry about that. Here's the English version that I can't seem to remember where I found it.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q4W9cTWkgt5Qdm34Zs--A9Y991s54fDb/view?usp=sharing

As for Jonathan Jones, I'd be surprised if he doesn't do at least some type of easy running at some point. In college, the speedy type guys would get their aerobic work done with long interval, vo2max workouts (short rest/high volume 400's, 600's, 800's, 1k's) but would would occasionally do some easy runs in the 20-30 min range. We had a bunch of 47-49/1:50-1:53 guys doing that type of work. I personally did better with some fartleks in the summer/Fall, but have never found tempo's or long runs above 60 min to be beneficial.

Yes, still reading. Very much enjoying the conversation.

There seems to be a general consensus about *some* form of easy running, yes. And I'm taking that seriously. Within that consensus there is a vast and unhospitable gap about what and how much this "some" is, with many of the more lonnnnnggggg distance runners convinced that "some" is "a whole lot" and anyone who disagrees is a moron. Those sorts of folks are likely overrepresented on this site, which I suppose inordinately attracts road runners and marathoners and whatnot.

Based on personal experience let me implore you to please not mess this kid up by forcing him to do long distance runs right now. If he has run his current times, without doing distance runs, I suggest introducing a few 20 minute runs per week initially. Maybe bump it up to 30 eventually but I would stop there.

I had a 800m pr of 1:56.3 in high school. I was a varsity basketball player and played basketball 8 1/2 months out of the year. I ran track for about 3 1/2 months out of the year and my training was mainly track intervals.

The week I pr'd I did two distance runs. One was 3 miles the other was 5. 5 was pushing it for me but I did it. I ran 300's the other days. Race day was Saturday and I had a great race. I probably had a few more seconds in me but no one went with me when I made my move with 300 left to go.

I walked on at a Pac-12 university and thought that when I started running year round I would set the world on fire but the opposite happened. I was told to start running with the cross country team, 35-40 miles a week and soon was injured all the time. I also felt low on energy which I realized was because it was taking everything in me just to complete the workouts. By race days I had used up all of my mental and physical energy and just didn't have it. I got down to 1:54 but that was a disappointment to me.

However, I noticed that whenever one of the 800 guys showed some promise he was immediately sent to workout with our sprint coach, Tom Jones, a few days a week.

All that to say, just give your runner a few 20-30 minute runs a week and I bet that will be enough to have a positive impact on his performance.

The exact same situation happened to me, although I did a very low volume XC season my senior year of hs, the rest I did wrestling in the fall/winter. Ran 49/1:54 in high school, topping out at 40 mpw in the fall but usually in the 20-30mpw range. My college coach was amazed at the times in the 800/1500 I was able to run on super low mileage and said to me "think of how fast you'll run once you bump your mileage up!" Three years later of college XC, 50-60 mile weeks, 2 hour long runs and I just got slower and slower (even in the 1500) every year until I decided enough and he basically let me write my own training plan my last year, after which I was able to improve but never got back to my high school abilities.

By maximize the aerobic benefit with ENOUGH aerob work. Effective smart training. 🧙‍♂️🇸🇪

Regardless of which camp you are in (mileage or no mileage), please tell me you don't think you PRd because of what you did that week?

if someone is able to give an exact number as to how far these athletes can/should run, then they are much smarter than me. I think its highly dependent on the person. basically, try a couple 20 minute runs to start with a few strides or 200s on the end. if it goes well, bump to 30. and so on and so forth. Over the course of a few years, I think that you need to find ways to continue to progressively overload so maybe youre getting up to 8 miles or something like that but its really dependent on how the athlete responds to 20-30 minute runs. I think intensive/extensive tempos are an interesting replacement for easy running on paper but for most 800 guys the rest of the training week is too hard on the body to add yet another interval session. even though the paces are relatively low intensity compared to his absolute speed, running 70 second quarters is still gonna be hard and doesn't leave much time to recover. Like most people here, I don't think you should keep up with the types of workouts you listed, something more manageable would probably be more beneficial. keep the top speed, add some more realistic under/over pace workouts whatever capacity that comes about, but just add in some easy longer running. again, more of a long term goal rather than a right now goal but it would probably be a good idea to work towards some type of broken threshold session. intervals of a like 600-1200 or 2-5ish minutes @ a threshold-ish pace is probably a good idea with the goal being you hit like 18-24 ish minutes of work for that session. still, the ends to middle principals covers all of this if you interpret it right

"an understanding of the different non-aerobic energy systems is something the vast majority of distance runners lack."

Preach, Brother Old Washed Up Runner Guy! I'm in your church, and my kid needs a new pastor! Been biting my tongue, watching her school coach train the middle distance athletes like a bunch of half-marathoners.

Great thread. I'll throw this in as another datapoint: Nixon
Kiprotich's regime (a 1:43 guy, silver in the 92 Olympics). This is taken from
Anderson's Running Science. It's even more brutal than OP's workouts.

Dec-Jan - base period. Mon-Fri 15K am, 8K pm, all easy.
Sat-Sun off

Feb-Mar - hills. Same as Dec-Jan but replace 2 days with
20 x 200m near max effort hill reps

Apr-May - race specific work:

• Mon - 2 x 5 x 1000, 2 min between reps, 10 min between sets. 800 slower than race pace then 200 race pace or faster
• Tue - 8 x 200 close to goal race pace, 5-10 meters jog rest
• Wed - 4 x 600, 2 min rest; 2 secs per 200 slower than race pace. Then 5 x 300, 2 min rest; 100 same pace as 600s then 200 at goal race pace
• Thu - 4 x 400, 2 min rest; 2-3 secs faster than goal race pace
• Fri - 4 x 500, 2 min rest; at race pace
• Sat - 40 mins easy
• Sun - off

Jun-Sep - race season. Reduce to 2 workouts a week

Oct-Nov - off