NC State and Tuohy will not win Nationals (OK State and Valby will)

Can anyone read? I did not say they were the best (or elite). The post I replied to said "Nearly every top female college distance runner was good in HS but not the best".

Good point. The NC state program has been questionable for quite a long time.

You are right. One hundred percent. But it is the elephant in the room and no one is talking about it. It is worth shining a light on it. The notion that BTC nonsense is possibly connected to college distance running is truly sickening, but the sport won't clean itself up and college sports are corrupt to begin with. I mean Schumacher was hired by Oregon. Ross was hired by Tennessee. Just hope for the best I guess, expecting nothing.

Yes, good post. Valby has definitely thrown herself into the mix. I have heard little about her except for this season.

So I have almost nothing to go on watching Valby at this level - she could land anywhere in the top 10 and I wouldn't be surprised. I still have Tuohy as a clear #1, but that is simply the result of seeing Tuohy perform well in XC over the years on many hilly courses. In my mind, everyone else in the top 10 is well known...Valby is the X-factor.

right, 10:10 3200, in the florida heat and humidity, with a couple of years experience = Talent.

also, look at her, she looks completely different than she did in HS. She looks like a pro runner. In HS she looked like a swimmer

I think she can win it, and I am pulling for her. But she could obv go out too hard and fall apart and be 12th

Okay, I'll bite...
What is Elly's current association with GDS? They have different coaches and different sponsors. Elly trains in Flagstaff, GDS trains in British Columbia. They're probably friendly with each other from when GDS was in Flag for BTC training camps and from the race circuit, but I'm at a loss for the connection you're trying to draw here.

Also, you're getting your facts wrong. GDS didn't leave BTC "right after Houlihan's failed drug test." She left months later, once it was clear that her concerns surrounding the team and Jerry's continued associations with Shelby weren't going to be addressed to her satisfaction. Also, where is the evidence that GDS ever "hated and despised" Houlihan? If that were the case, wouldn't it have been super strange for her to sign with BTC in 2020, considering Houlihan would likely have been her most compatible (1500m specialist with great 5000 chops) training partner in the group?

If anything, an athlete being close with GDS would tip me toward thinking they're less likely to dope, due to GDS's stated reasons for leaving BTC.

That is what makes Tuohy's progression from HS to college suspicious. The elite HS girls didn't go on to be the elite college runners. The aforemtioned elite college distance runners were good in HS. The elite HS runners weren't elite in college. Astro should be thanked for bringing the fact to our attention that abnormal progress is the main indicator or doping. Tuohy's is absolutely abnormal. Valby's is the same as Wayment, Schweizer, Monson, Houlihan and others.

Have you signed up to get your free "I root against Tuohy" T shirt?

What a totally sexist, misogynistic ignorant statement. So, in your view all elite female hs runners are doomed? Or just the US women?

Alexi Pappas would beg to disagree with you. She went through a similar plateau to Tuohy (and Tuohy was injured too) before becoming an Olympian. She wrote about it.

If yall want to read about PEDs, here goes.

I am an Internal Medicine Doctor.

The only PED that would give a large boost in performance to an aerobic athlete would be Procrit or Aranesp( which is EPO)

I prescribe this a handful of times per year to patients with severe anemia secondary to renal disease.

My point, an athlete does NOT need to see a special doctor or lab to get this drug. It is super easy to prescribe and manage. Pretty sure the dumbest doctor could handle it. Heck, I even joked with my own kid about giving it to her, if one of the side effects was not sudden death.

So, whatever coach or association that is being referred to..... Pretty sure does not matter, its an easy drug to prescribe, albeit super expensive!!! Since obviously insurance would not cover it, and depending on the athletes response in hemoglobin, looks like it would cost 3000 to 6000 per month , minus the physician fee for doing something illegal that could cause death and jail time

Interesting. So you’ve described the situation in the US. What did you think about the German doping documentary that said, in Russia, EPO could be ordered and hand-delivered like a pizza, no prescription required.

And how are (previous to getting on the big stage) no-name Kenyan runners getting access to the drug? Who are the providers? How expensive is it (on the black market?) over there?

I am not aware of a black market for this drug, as per I do not deal in this realm.

However, it is a big money maker for the bio tech companies, and I am guessing it is difficult to produce.

But, taking out your blood, storing it appropriate temp, and getting a transfusion 6-8 weeks later, would be cheap and easy.

I cant see a college runner doing this. And would also be surprised if a college students parents would fund the Procrit. But, obviously possible.....

Anyhow, my humble opinion would be that PEDs( in middle distance runners), would be super rare if not never done.

However, anabolic steroids in the power sports are probably readily being used.

Disclaimer: i reserve the right to be completely wrong and or naive.

I agree with you.

this is interesting, from the NCAA drug testing program docs

The NCAA recognizes that some banned substances
are used for legitimate medical purposes. Accordingly,
the NCAA allows exceptions to be made for those
student-athletes with a documented medical history that
demonstrates the banned substance is needed as part of
an approved medical treatment or therapy plan.
Exceptions may be granted for
the following classes of banned
substances:
• Stimulants
• Anabolic agents
• Beta blockers
• Diuretics
• Narcotics
• Peptide hormones, growth factors, related
substances and mimetics
• Hormone and metabolic modulators
• Beta-2 agonists
NOTE: No medical exception review is available for
substances in the class of cannabinoids.

Your post is a lead-in to an idea I had for the thread topic on looking for ideas to ‘clean-up’ the sport.

I think there should be an ‘athlete collective’ hosting a ‘public repository’ in which any and all athletes can voluntarily come forward and post all of their TUE’s. There is probably already a record of these kept secret (currently by the doping authorities.) So, the athletes would simply sign-in, check that record, and then check a box to make it public record.

I can’t see why any honest athlete desiring clean competition (even those that have gone thru something like a knee surgery in the past) would be opposed to this?

Thoughts?

Yes, that would be great. If athletes would do it. Was really surprised to see anabolic agents and HGH on this list, but maybe I shouldn't be.

This is also interesting, from a while ago:

Twenty-four percent of college athletes who use steroids are certain that their coaches know they use them, and 21 percent say their coach, athletic trainer, or team physician supplies the drugs. Those findings are part of the most recent NCAA Study of Substance Use Habits of College Student-Athletes, released in its entirety in April. Conducted every four years, the study polls students across all NCAA divisions. Twenty thousand athletes responded to the most recent survey.

I looked at the most recent NCAA drug use study and athletes today still self report using amphetamines and steroids and other, but in smaller numbers. If a small number are answering yes in the NCAA survey's it makes you wonder what the real number is.

Wow! 24% is a HUGE number!. And most of those started in high school!

oops I mis-read. 1.2% reported using steriods. Thank you for posting the link.

yeah it's 24% of the users say their coaches know, and 21% say their coach / trainer etc is supplying them. this is across all sports (including football which has a huge problem), but still.