3:56 solo.
3:56 solo.
Most HS coaches would screw up this "gift" if they were to receive it - no doubt in my mind.
I spent some time at a junior development camp in CO Springs - a well known college coach mentioned that he had turned 4:0x HS runners into 4:1x college runners. He was brutally honest about his record.
Also, have to agree that the "big fish / small pond" factors in and these guys are greeted with the reality of running in college when they are suddenly in a big pond full of big fish. Running in college is mostly an aggregate of the top one or two guys at their HS or the top one or two guys in their state.
Calabasa wrote:
perfect cell wrote:
The warmer weather slowed them down a bit. Not more than 10 seconds but enough to take away any chance at the CR. The top 3 are all very close to German level.
I seem to recall it was mid 70s when German ran his record. Can anyone remember more accurately?
I was there when German ran his record. It was pretty warm. Warmer than yesterday. I was sweating pretty good just jogging around watching the race.
chjjjbjkk wrote:
rojo wrote:
Putting the times in perspective
https://twitter.com/FloTrack/status/1464779728091500548Doesn’t this read like the list of runners who disappointed after HS
Nico actually holds the fastest 5000m lifetime PR of this whole list (even though he is still a Junior) with a 13:24.26
I believe that two or three guys on the list never broke 14 for 5000m
Ryan Hall and Meb didn't even make the list!
German ran 3:55 for an indoor mile (which was the world U20 record), Won the NCAA D1 1500 as a frosh and set the American Junior Record for 5k the year after graduating high school. Sure the rest of his career was marred by injury, but any of those results by themselves would be considered career highlights for any collegian out there.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned yet but German was also 'young' for his grade. He easily could have been a junior that year...Only turned 18 in November of his freshman year at OSU.
I know that some of the NP kids are still juniors so it doesn't change much, but still.
gettinfreakon wrote:
Most HS coaches would screw up this "gift" if they were to receive it - no doubt in my mind.
I spent some time at a junior development camp in CO Springs - a well known college coach mentioned that he had turned 4:0x HS runners into 4:1x college runners. He was brutally honest about his record.
Also, have to agree that the "big fish / small pond" factors in and these guys are greeted with the reality of running in college when they are suddenly in a big pond full of big fish. Running in college is mostly an aggregate of the top one or two guys at their HS or the top one or two guys in their state.
I've been following sports for many years and have never heard of this fish/pond theory. In any sport, success is talent, training or practicing and avoiding injuries and nothing else. Some 9:00 guys struggle in college but it has absolutely nothing to do with how fast their teammates were in HS.
CoachB wrote:
Ryan Hall and Meb didn't even make the list!
German ran 3:55 for an indoor mile (which was the world U20 record), Won the NCAA D1 1500 as a frosh and set the American Junior Record for 5k the year after graduating high school. Sure the rest of his career was marred by injury, but any of those results by themselves would be considered career highlights for any collegian out there.
I am not talking about who did not make the list. 100% of all Californian Olympians/WC members did not make the list
Also, 3:55 is fine, but Lucas Bons also ran 3:55.
13:25 is fine, but it doesn’t rank him in the top 100 Americans
He was not a complete bomb like two or three guys on that list. But he never became a star in the senior ranks
SDSU Aztec wrote:
gettinfreakon wrote:
Most HS coaches would screw up this "gift" if they were to receive it - no doubt in my mind.
I spent some time at a junior development camp in CO Springs - a well known college coach mentioned that he had turned 4:0x HS runners into 4:1x college runners. He was brutally honest about his record.
Also, have to agree that the "big fish / small pond" factors in and these guys are greeted with the reality of running in college when they are suddenly in a big pond full of big fish. Running in college is mostly an aggregate of the top one or two guys at their HS or the top one or two guys in their state.
I've been following sports for many years and have never heard of this fish/pond theory. In any sport, success is talent, training or practicing and avoiding injuries and nothing else. Some 9:00 guys struggle in college but it has absolutely nothing to do with how fast their teammates were in HS.
You don't have much experience then. Kids who spend their entire HS careers as the BEST at what they do will often times have trouble adapting to being just another guy in college.
If you have any experience you will also have seen the same thing happen with guys that are on the border of varsity/JV. Some of these guys will run much better when running at the front of a JV race. You put them in a varsity race and they are in the middle/back of the pack and they will often run much worse. It has nothing to do with fitness or training. It is all mental. Running with a chance to win is way different than running in the pack and trying to place in the top 100 (or whatever place it may be).
SDSU Aztec wrote:
I've been following sports for many years and have never heard of this fish/pond theory. In any sport, success is talent, training or practicing and avoiding injuries and nothing else. Some 9:00 guys struggle in college but it has absolutely nothing to do with how fast their teammates were in HS.
Individuals compare their own self-concept with their peers and equally capable individuals have higher self-concepts when in a less capable group than in a more capable group.
Summary:
They go to college and their egos get crushed.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
newbury park is literally 10x the size of the place i work, so I will assume I would be lucky to see that amount of talent come across in 10 years time. throw in the fact that it's a well to do area with a good gene pool, which is in the opposite direction of where i work, and it's really the case that it is the kind of talent that I won't find in my entire career.
It's a good setup. I am quite envious of those who get to work with such a student population.
This is true for a lot of places, but what I was getting at is that, at many schools, kids who run XC are the “weirdos.” Based on their YouTube videos, these kids actually seem like the “cool kids” at the school where I teach. It may be that even the weirdos in California seem cool, but those guys would take one look at the lot that are on most XC teams in the country and say, “yeah right.”
Completely disagree. NP kids might not be weirdos in the sense that they aren’t your typical pale pasty and scrawny nerds who run xc and can’t break 20 minutes. But they definitely aren’t “cool”.
I say this as a college freshman who partied all high school. I’m even running for a P5 school right now. I went to an invitational that the NP kids were at, they seemed sort of stuck up, like they expected everyone to treat them differently just cause they were from NP.
My perspective might be a bit different as I care less about running and more about general competition/winning, but I definitely wouldn’t consider these kids cool. When I came back for thanksgiving break and went to parties with my old groups I got the “oh, you run for ____, right?” And that was pretty much it. Truth is no one really cares about running. If you aren’t playing a major sport I don’t think anyone outside of those in the sport would consider it “cool”
If Newbury Park were such a reservoir of talent, why did they never do anything at all in xc until this great coach/piece of work as a human being landed there? There are plenty of pairs of brothers out there and there have been famously good twins, including the Hausers, and mediocre twins like the site founders. But this guy is coaching them at the college level, a month at altitude, 8x1k on grass at 5k pace, a real team culture. He is the reason that this team is so great, that and that Nico Young was looked up to and helped establish this environment in which hard work, aiming for greatness, and the importance of the team are the emphasis. As for the girls, he's maybe not quite the natural coach for them that he is for the boys--his wife helps a lot I am sure--but they have improved enormously over the past years and are really on the cusp of a national level program, if not one like the boys (which I do not exclude as a possibility). You just do not get 4 of the top 5 California xc performers of all-time at one program in a three year period by luck. He is raising the bar at every program in the country.
I'm still amazed that so few are mentioning the shoe factor when listing these kids times compared to past time. ESPECIALLY ROJO!
Minimum 15-20 seconds right? That kiiiinda changes the discussion, doesn't it? I mean, y'all are aware of the new shoe technologies and improved energy return right? Ring a bell anyone? You've heard of them?
Once again, while not as big of a difference, comparing times of today vs yesteryear is like comparing swimming times of the new full bodysuit era vs past times or cycling times on modern bikes vs ones done on older ones. This can't be ignored.
Sadly one should just not compare to the past anymore. Only compare to the present.
westsouthrunner wrote:
Verzbikas win over cheserek, gedyon, Lutz, moussa in 2010 was superior to me. Especially considering he had footlocker regionals before it. Cheserek was a 840 guy by then if I'm not mistaken
Have to remember that Ches was a sophomore when he faced Lukas in 2010, who was a senior. He still only lost by a couple seconds.
gettinfreakon wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
I've been following sports for many years and have never heard of this fish/pond theory. In any sport, success is talent, training or practicing and avoiding injuries and nothing else. Some 9:00 guys struggle in college but it has absolutely nothing to do with how fast their teammates were in HS.
Individuals compare their own self-concept with their peers and equally capable individuals have higher self-concepts when in a less capable group than in a more capable group.
Summary:
They go to college and their egos get crushed.
Why can't kids compare themselves to other people in the races or their times to the best in the U.S.? Do coaches take a pass on great runners that didn't have fast teammates in HS?
I don't recall any of the great runners from the large pond York teams from 70s doing well in college,while Virgin, who might have been the only fish in his HS pond, did quite well.
Some of you guys are always looking for some coaching or mental edge, but it's always going to come down to talent and the jump to the next level is the same for everyone.
zcvxcxzv wrote:
If Newbury Park were such a reservoir of talent, why did they never do anything at all in xc until this great coach/piece of work as a human being landed there? There are plenty of pairs of brothers out there and there have been famously good twins, including the Hausers, and mediocre twins like the site founders. But this guy is coaching them at the college level, a month at altitude, 8x1k on grass at 5k pace, a real team culture. He is the reason that this team is so great, that and that Nico Young was looked up to and helped establish this environment in which hard work, aiming for greatness, and the importance of the team are the emphasis. As for the girls, he's maybe not quite the natural coach for them that he is for the boys--his wife helps a lot I am sure--but they have improved enormously over the past years and are really on the cusp of a national level program, if not one like the boys (which I do not exclude as a possibility). You just do not get 4 of the top 5 California xc performers of all-time at one program in a three year period by luck. He is raising the bar at every program in the country.
It’s called recruiting. This horse has been beaten to death on this forum. They get kids from 30-40 miles away who all were super stud runners before they stepped on campus. There is not a single boy or girl on the roster that didn’t run youth track and not a single boy in the top 8 who didn’t run well under 5:00 (some in the low 4:40’s) before high school. Prior to this “piece of work as a human landed there”, they didn’t have that talent show up. These are not kids walking halls that are plucked out of PE. They are mature, seasoned runners with families that fanatically support their kids running and have since they were young.
Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:
I'm still amazed that so few are mentioning the shoe factor when listing these kids times compared to past time. ESPECIALLY ROJO!
Minimum 15-20 seconds right? That kiiiinda changes the discussion, doesn't it? I mean, y'all are aware of the new shoe technologies and improved energy return right? Ring a bell anyone? You've heard of them?
Once again, while not as big of a difference, comparing times of today vs yesteryear is like comparing swimming times of the new full bodysuit era vs past times or cycling times on modern bikes vs ones done on older ones. This can't be ignored.
Sadly one should just not compare to the past anymore. Only compare to the present.
Today's low-stack 5 oz racing flats aren't worth 15-20 seconds over a 5k compared to racing flats 15 years ago. The minimal foam used in flats today have a little bit better energy return, but it's not going to make much difference- especially running on dirt. German wasn't racing with bricks on his feet, and it's not even remotely comparable to the difference seen in marathon shoes/times. That's why no one is talking about this.
xcrunner22765 wrote:
You sound like a massive loser with all these excuses. Pity the kids you do coach.
Sounded pragmatic to me. His words could just as easily been spoken by my high school coach. He was a good, intelligent, motivating coach.
What was the best team times in history for the course?
I saw the NP team set the record but am curious what are the top 5 or 10 times ever.
not a duck wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
This is true for a lot of places, but what I was getting at is that, at many schools, kids who run XC are the “weirdos.” Based on their YouTube videos, these kids actually seem like the “cool kids” at the school where I teach. It may be that even the weirdos in California seem cool, but those guys would take one look at the lot that are on most XC teams in the country and say, “yeah right.”
Completely disagree. NP kids might not be weirdos in the sense that they aren’t your typical pale pasty and scrawny nerds who run xc and can’t break 20 minutes. But they definitely aren’t “cool”.
I say this as a college freshman who partied all high school. I’m even running for a P5 school right now. I went to an invitational that the NP kids were at, they seemed sort of stuck up, like they expected everyone to treat them differently just cause they were from NP.
My perspective might be a bit different as I care less about running and more about general competition/winning, but I definitely wouldn’t consider these kids cool. When I came back for thanksgiving break and went to parties with my old groups I got the “oh, you run for ____, right?” And that was pretty much it. Truth is no one really cares about running. If you aren’t playing a major sport I don’t think anyone outside of those in the sport would consider it “cool”
You seem bitter. If you, like everyone else, are not as good as the NP guys, it doesn't mean the sport of distance running sucks.
zcvxcxzv wrote:
We have a tendency to see German's ceiling at that age as lower than Lukas Verzbicas because the latter ran sub 4 and 8:29, while German ran 4:00/8:34. But 8:29 was with a pacer in a pro race and LV was a year older (German graduated at 17) and, because of injury and quitting running, never ran faster, while German at 18 as a college freshman ran 3:55/3:55 solo/7:47i sick, and went on to run 3:34 1500m the summer after his senior year of college. Not sure what happened at Footlocker, but then he was injury-prone.
if we’re treating ones high school career as up until one could still technically be in high school then nicos the greatest of all time. he was also 17 as a senior. at 18 he ran 13:24 and came in 4th at NCAAs minus oregon.