My goal of sub 4:00 1500-I will not stop until I reach my goal.

Way to go Eddy on the SUB 4!!!!

The gig is up Mr. Edwards wrote:

it's high time we deleted this thread, this tumor, this...farce of monumental magnitude!

Though I will say that this thread is really fun to monkey around on. It's like that Wack a Mole game. Good old Eddy Lee keeps on coming back for more. Really, he's quite the good sport considering all the ribbing he gets. Jonesy on the other hand, well, he's a little pisser.

Radical Ron, my opinion is that you should start track intervals now, but probably skip the high speed stuff, because you're going to need some 5 minute pace stuff to get down under 5 for a race soon. of course, you were a much better runner than I'll ever be, so take my advice with a grain of salt. but I started getting faster by running 4-6 mile tempos (weekly, often alternating with workouts like thursday's) and 400-2k intervals at 5k-10M pace usually. why not try some 3xmile, with a 400 jog, 5x800 with a 200-400 jog, 8x400 with a 200 jog? at first just target sub-6 minute pace for the repeat miles, sub-2:50 for the 800s, and sub-80 for the 400s. try beginning the track sessions with a jog to the track and an easy 3x200 at no faster than 40. if that stuff is easy, you can pick up the intervals, shorten the rests, and increase the number of reps.

sair, looking forward to see what you can do in a race. your improvement from hs is extraordinary and those workouts you've done suggest you're going to run some very fine times this year.

Radical Ron wrote:

Cool Joe... we need more 1500m guys to add to the mix. When are you graduating?

In a few weeks. I was actually planning on moving up and trying longer distances. We will see how training goes, though.

4:42 mile on Saturday (unofficial). 70-409m,73,70,69 (33).

Slight progress from 4:48 high at the end of January and 4:46 at the end of February, after a big 3k pr. I'm still over 2 seconds off my college mile pr from 1989 but I have just re-started the track workouts and aside from 4 300s last week after 4 lousy 1k's (3:17,3:16,3:14,3:10, 54,51,51,50), I haven't done any speed in awhile. So, I think that I'll be ready next time for mid to high 4:30s or 1500m comparable. I saw that I had to run 31 with 200m to go and I picked it up and in the last 100m was about to easily pass the third place guy but I had to slow down because there was barely any room to get between him and the parade of lapped runners in lane 2. So, when I got within a few feet of him, he picked it up and held me off. Probably next race will be another 10k in Central Park in two weeks but I want to get a track 5k in this month as well. Tempo workouts are going well (last week-3M-16:35, 1/2 M jog, 1.5M-7:57) and track workouts have improved, except that the ham wts last Monday night killed the Tuesday workout.

Men 1500 Meter Run

================================================================

Name Year School Finals

================================================================

1 Zwama, Paul Fresno 4:00.98

2 Lee, Eddie Bakersfield 4:03.73

3 Carrillo, Elijah Fresno 4:05.53

4 Orozco, Jose Bakersfield 4:10.49

5 Jadot, Phillip Fresno 4:10.92

Disapointing to say the least.

I stayed back for the first 800meters due to the wind and small field(66,65). Coming up to the 800meter mark, I knew that I had to go if I wanted to get a decent time. I surged up and took the lead. 64sec next 400. I tried kicking, but my legs were not there. Head wind sucked too...48second last 300...got passed with 120 to go.

My roommate and I are going to an invite this weekend to have one last shot at some good times. I'm obviously running the 1500. 208 at the 800 is the goal. I have the fitness to do it. I just need to get out agressively.

Good job on your mile Jonesy. Your tempos are killer. I'm going to need some advice this coming summer because I realized last fall how important those tempo runs are.

Good luck on your next race.

Hey Eddy, all in due time. Hope you get it next weekend!

Hoping to break 4:10 this coming Sat. I've had some pretty good workouts that are indicative of a new level of fitness.

Good Job Jonesy on getting a 4:43. Not bad!

Sheesh 416 to 410!!!

Go for it :D

214 @ the half eh?

last two workouts:

1 x mile, 3x400 full rest

5:12, 56, 55, 55

ziiiing! this felt absolutely insane. i have never gone this fast before. my mind is still trying to wrap itself around the fact that i did this.

3x200, 2x300, 500, 2x300, 3x200, 300

90 rest throughout except 4 minutes before the final 300

30-31 pace for the entire thing (except 43s for the last 300)

and pretty relaxed throughout. it didn't ever feel hard.

Boingo, great workout 400's. Buddy, I tell you what.... If you can't bust 4 in the 1500m with those kinds of splits, I suggest you get your head examined. LOL!!!

Working on it here too... yesterday did a solo phase 4 workout specified by DRF. 4 sets of 200, 200, 400... jogs in between bouts for sufficient recovery. Solo: 31.18, 32.03, 69.32, (31.57, 30.85, 66.63), (31.13, 31.92, 66.45), (32.13, 32.52, 67.51)

Race on Sat... stand by for the latest installment of the wild-man report.

eddy, great job breaking 2 in the 800! That was just a mental barrier for you. Has your coach had you do much of 600-mile in workouts this year?

boingo, those quarters were incredible. I have to ask, though, whether your training is overly skewed toward 800m races, as I don't recall seeing either tempo workouts or 800m-2k workouts from you this year. You ran a 5:12 mile prior to the quarters and maybe that was just a warmup, or maybe you're just sharpening with all the speed, but it seems like it doesn't fit there--that it should be sub-4:50. But if I think that you could be that much better with the longer speed and tempos, I agree with Ron that you are going to break four and I think that means at NYC Challenge this weekend. Good luck! Ron, you're showing excellent progress. I recommended that you join KC Smoke last summer and you can see how much it helps to run hard workouts with people. This is something that I'm missing right now.

I'm finally starting to cut some mileage. Last week was down to 86 only because I ran only 1 mile the day before the 4:42.33 mile race, but this week I'm planning to cut down to about 80 or so and then maybe to 70 the next week. So far, I've run 14.4, 11.5 and 11 this week. Today I did 3x200 (100j) w/u-37,37,36; 5x800 (200j)-2:25,2:30,2:33,2:32,2:30; 3x300 (100j)-53,51,50.

I struggled with the 200 rest on the 800's but am encouraged by the 2:25 start and I think that I could have maintained close to that on the 400 rest I was supposed to do. I'm still not sure that at my age I can re-acquire the speed necessary to bring my mile time down significantly but the aerobic is there to drop all my times at 3k and up.

hey jonesy -

i may just be omitting posting most of the longer workouts. we have tilted more towards fast / hard in the past month, but there have definitely been longer ones. (the mile was, indeed, a warmup)

let me dredge a few out of my log.

2k, 4r, 1200, 4r, 1200, 4r, 400

5x12 in 3:50, 2x2 @ 30 1 min rest throughout

3 x (3 min, 2R, 2 min, 1R, 1 min)

4 x (5 min on, 1 min off) (around 5:10 pace)

800, 800, mile, 800, 800 @ 2:24's and 5:0x (2R except 4 after the mile)

you're right that there aren't a ton of longer workouts happening right now - most of them were in late february to early april. but in general i feel significantly stronger (aerobically) than before. if i had to take a guess i'd say 15:00 in the 5k would be doable right now, even lacking the race-specific work - we'll find out though, i'm probably doing one at one of the meets at bentley.

running tempo pace the entire fall may have something to do with that - even if the workouts aren't continuous, it's still something like 25-30 minutes worth of tempo work twice a week for 2 and a half to 3 months.

i probably do have a little leeway to jump into the longer workouts if i feel i need the work, but for this first season i think i want to just see what happens - i don't want to question the approach until i've experienced the whole cycle fully. obviously i'm improving - and it may just be the case where i get more bang for my buck doing shorter workouts. our coach is also just adjusting to getting new guys and is sort of figuring out how people respond to different workout types.

anyhoo, thank you for the advice.

good luck everyone this weekend!

boingo wrote:

last two workouts:

1 x mile, 3x400 full rest

5:12, 56, 55, 55

ziiiing! this felt absolutely insane. i have never gone this fast before. my mind is still trying to wrap itself around the fact that i did this.

3x200, 2x300, 500, 2x300, 3x200, 300

90 rest throughout except 4 minutes before the final 300

30-31 pace for the entire thing (except 43s for the last 300)

and pretty relaxed throughout. it didn't ever feel hard.

Boingo its time to be honest with you. Your workouts no where near indicate you are capable of sub 4. Everyone on here seems to be amazed at your workouts and believe that it indicates sub 4. It does not. For example in this first workout having full recovery on those 400s is pointless. And a mile in 5:12 should be a relaxed good feeling hard pace for a sub 4 guy, nothing to write home about.

As for the second, 90s, rest after 200s? Really? You are taking WAY too much rest on every single workout you are doing. You are no where near breaking 4. These workouts simply seem fast because you are taking ridiculous amounts of rest on ALL of them. You should have taken 30s after the 200, 60s after the 300s amd perhaps 90s after the 500. Sorry to break it to you but you needed to know. Cut the rest, get harder workouts. There is a reason these workouts are not feeling hard.

Doesn't it depend on what phase he's in? If he's in Phase III, I would agree that the rest is too long. However, if he's doing phase IV and sharpening for the races to come, then the rest might not be that bad. Boingo... what phase are you in per DRF speakage?

This is a good example of HOW you don't understand training or physiology. Why would Eddy (who runs the 800/1500 exclusively this year -- and has shown that he is not good at longer distances in XC) want to be doing MILE repeats? 600s sure, 800s OK, maybe but let's remember that he just recently ran 1:59 and 4:01 (but more frequently 4:03-4:08). He is at the level of a HS runner who MIGHT win his conference meet and is trying to make State meet. Explain why he would want to do reps longer than 600-800? 1600 reps at what? 5:00 each? How is that going to help? It is not VO2max training and it is not anaerobic capacity or lactate tolerance training. Both the 800 and 1500 are faster than your speed at Vo2max so how is training at SLOWER than that going to help?

Also, Eddy is in college and CANNOT call the shots in his training.

Your advice for boingo seems just as bad or worse. Again, 800 reps OK, fine for a 1500/800 runner, but beyond that and its 5k training. 2k repeats? Seriously? Trying to pull my punch a little and be nice, but 2k repeats need (by definition) to be slower than 5k pace and how is that going to help him?

He is also a college runner (I think) and how can he call his own shots?

200-300-400-500-600 and sometimes 800 reps are the staple for the 800/1500 runner.

I would try to hold back from giving advice to these others. You (IIRC) are now a 4:42 miler and 2:43 marathoner. You don't lack speed, that is the time I would EXPECT you to run (for the mile) based on your other race times. You may be able to run a 4:30 mile ... not sure ... but you will need to change your program.

To jonesy:

When I was in high school and running 1600 and 3200 nearly every week from january to June, I had a good opportunity to see the effects of different training and what influences your ability at the Mile distance. I typically ran base training of 60-70-80 mpw as a junior and senior during the Nov-Dec-Jan-Feb timeframe and it consisted of easy runs at about 6:30-7 pace and hard runs at 5:00-5:45 pace (depends on whether it was 5, 7 or 10 miles). As a junior, I was doing 17-20 mile runs with some local guys in their 20s who were training for the marathon and after beating them in a 5 mile training race in 25:30 I thought I should just do the same marathon as they were doing. We ran about 6:30 pace I guess (for the long runs), until they started beating up on each other and it got down to 5:45-6:00 for the last 5. From those experiences I thought I could "run" a marathon easily. I had also done two 25km races faster than 6:00 pace in the previous two years. Purdy tables predicted faster, but I knew I could not break 2:30 so I went out at 6:00 pace kept it there and ended up running 2:35.

I had run 4:27 for 1600 right around that time, a week or so before at indoor State Meet. So I wouldn't second-guess your 4:42 that much. I remember running 5:00-flats and 4:50 and 4:48 in disappointing races as a freshman and sophomore and it took a few weeks of intervals, warmer weather with no wind, lower volume and being fresh to run the best I did for those years.

You ran very even pace and you know what level you are at (as in you are a 4:35-4:40 runner right now instead of a 4:20 or a 4:50 runner). That is the problem of HS and college runners ... if they are capable of 4:20 or 9:20 by the end of the season, they want to be RIGHT THERE at the start of the racing and they end up going out too fast ... myself included.

This is why I still come to this site. Now my justification for saying that milers should be doing tempos and intervals of at least 600m each is that the complete runner is going to run a wide variety of workouts and paces. What is the best way to improve? If you do low mileage, add some mileage; if you don't do a long run, add a long run; if you don't do tempos, do some tempos; if you don't do speed (200-400), add some speedwork; if you don't do hills, add hills. The basic idea is that you can make greater improvements by adding a new element that covers one of your weaknesses. In this case, these guys, it seems to me, have plenty of speed for the sub-4 1500m. That is, they are not struggling all-out to go 64-5 for a 400m. They can run sub 60s in workouts frequently. Where they could add something in-season is in the area of tempos or much harder tempos and longer mile-3k pace work, at the very least. So, the occasional 600s in low 1:30s (eddy did a 1:27 recently, I think), 800s in low 2:10s, mile pace 1k's and maybe even 1200s. I'm not saying a lot of reps of this work, but they need some longer stuff to bridge the gap between the short repeats and the longer race. Then the 5k pace work at 1200-2k will build strength or aerobic power or efficiency or whatever term you like. In any case, take this example from Steve Scott's training in 1982, where he does a lot of 660s and 880s, hills, and hard longer runs, such as the 10 miler in under 52:

26 April, Monday: AM 5mi loop, a little

tired. PM warmed up with ASU,

ran 8mi. Felt like shit, feel like a cold is coming.

15mi

Tuesday: No AM run, felt bad. PM felt better.

2x660-550-495-440-395 all sub60

pace. Last 440 in 51.1 3mi warmup, 2mi cooldown.

8mi

Wednesday: AM no run. PM 10mi w/ Pete on Canal.

Weights.

Thursday: AM 5mi. PM Supposed to be social 10mi but

ran hard with Pete. Sub52min!

Friday: AM 5mi real easy. PM Felt bad first 4mi,

easy out, hard on return. 15mi.

Saturday: AM 4mi loop. PM Ran 9mi to Pete's house.

Very windy. Weights.

Sunday: South Mtn run w/ Pete. Good, a bit dry. Went

to ASU baseball game. 15mi

Week: 91mi

3 May, Monday: AM no run. PM Easy/good 10mi +

weights.

Tuesday: AM 5mi, felt real bad. PM 3x440 (58.4) w/

200j, 880w, 880 (1:54.5),

440w, 440 (52.4). Easy workout. 12mi

Wednesday: AM 5mi loop. PM 10mi on canal easy.

Thursday: AM 5mi PM 2x(2x440-660-440-8x220) workout

was great all times fast!

15mi

Friday: AM 5mi. PM 5mi at school. Drove to CA.

Weights.

Saturday: AM 10mi run PM 2mi, golf - shot a 92.

Sunday: 15mi run with John in the foothills.

Week: 85mi

10 May, Monday: Felt really bad. In LA for

promo work for Al Franken.

Stopped at Cal Poly for easy 5mi, felt terrible.

Tuesday: AM good 5mi run PM Slept all day. Cold,

windy, wet foothills run. 15mi

Wednesday: @ UCI. 2x440-880-440-6x220-3x440. Very

good workout. 57-58, 1:54-58,

29s, 55-58-52. Jogged 6mi after. 13mi.

Thursday: AM 5mi run PM Easy run. 15mi

Friday: AM no run. PM Good run + strides. 10mi

Saturday: AM 5mi easy. PM 5mi easy.

Sunday: Pepsi Mile. AM 3mi. PM Race went

well. 1200@3:00, 3:52.68. Paige

was good. Jogged 6mi after.

Week: 80mi

17 May, Monday: AM felt real bad on run.

Legs hurt from volleyball.

Smoggy. 10mi

Tuesday: AM 5mi hard PM 10mi real hard fartlek.

Great run, windy on return.

Wednesday: AM 5mi good pace PM 10mi good pace.

Weights.

Thursday: AM 5mi loop. Felt tired, sore. PM 10mi

real easy.

Friday: AM 5mi loop good pace. PM 3x(440-880-440)

220j, 440x b/sets. 58-1:56-58,

58-1:58-57, 58-1:57-55. Good workout, not real hard.

13mi

Saturday: Easy, moderate 10mi.

Sunday: AM Just 5mi.

Week: 85mi

from 2:40 marathon, 33:51 road 10k, 16:04 5k, you're not going to expect much better than a 4:40 mile, but by your own logic, I should be able to run considerably faster with the faster, shorter intervals, because you swear that milers should only do interval training of 800 on down, especially 200-600, and I've done very little of that. Indeed, I recognize that what I need to do for the mile is to drop my overall mileage and especially add intensity to shorter track workouts but this is from a base of many hundred mile weeks, hard tempos and VO2 max workouts. I'd add that overdistance races are a standard prescription for the miler. That's why you see Webb and Lagat doing 3k's and sometimes 5k's in-season. The hard longer runs (=tempos) and longer intervals would only help.

My Ph.D. in philosophy, fifteen publications, and dozens of pr's in the last couple years in my late thirties and now 40 say I'm no idiot. But to the point, Scott's training logs show that he also does mile repeats and 1k's. The point is that you attack your weaknesses.