Asbel Kiprop on Living Under Doping Cloud

rekrunner wrote:

I already answered this in the very same post -- doping is not necessarily PED:

"PEDs unambiguously provide PE. The ambiguity is determining which drugs are PE, for whom, under which conditions."

I think that has been determined over decades of use. Androgens are used for strength and explosive movement activities (sprints), rEPO & blood doping is used for improving red blood cell mass and increasing 02 supply to the working muscles, HGH for strength & injury recovery...and so forth. All pretty basic stuff here...no surprises. The fact the athletes from all different types of sports continue to use & test positive for these drugs tells me there's no "ambiguity" and athletes have foolishly disregarded the dangerous side-effects in favor of the performancing enhancing benefits (i.e., risk/reward formula). It's all rather simple rekrunner.

El Keniano,

What do you propose Kiprop due in order to prove his innocence either soon or eventually?

What would you all do in this situation if you were in fact innocent? I would want access to the samples that had been tested. There is an A and B sample, but are there not left overs as well from both samples that can still be tested again now by other labs or have the samples saved for a later date when testing is considered to be closer to fail proof?

I think I would probably have to hope to do the latter, telling people I can not currently prove my innocence, but will have my sample testing again in the future when we can be more certain that there is no human error being made. Possibly that means waiting until Artificial Intelligence is used to interpret whether EPO or any synthetic drug was taken.

People need to remember that the test for EPO is not black and white as to whether someone was on it. The test doesn't come back saying "yes" or "no". It's a blot of sorts that has to be interpreted and it's open to human error.

Personally I would never want to trust the anti-doping establishment with my reputation. They can make errors and have in the past.

000 wrote:

You know shit about elite runners.

How many World/Olympic medalists have you coached? I've got 4.

Do you know why I bother replying to you? Because some of my kids read Letsrun. And you are one of Letsrun's cancers.

000 wrote:

I have coached 4 European runners, (you lie non-stop) medalists (men and women )

In other words, you are a racist piece of disgusting crap and I would love my younger runners to be able to come here and not find posts from you.

Look how you lie! Four Olympic medalists! Did I ever say that?

You are ridiculous. Go away, you worthless person.

Jonathan Gault/Brojos, please investigate this guy who has been threatening people for almost a year.

Errr, yeah, you did to any reasonable person who understands English. You asked me how many Olympic/World medalists I'd coached and boasted you had four. Then a couple of hours later you're screaming you never said you had coached Olympic medalists and that it proves what a liar I am??

Why you are you so angry about my anti-Kenyan doping stance and for stating doping is worse there than anywhere else (and that most people within and outside athletics would agree)?

Well I must confess I do not have any inner knowledge of elite athletics, or even local athletics for that matter. So if an anglo-saxon coach who has four athletes under him who have won medals (of an indeterminate shifting nature) reacts with such fury at the suggestion that doping is any less prevalent here and elsewhere to the out of control situation in Kenya, it's deeply disturbing and I should reappraise my position.

However, I believe you're either talking $hit or you're just a bad apple who is doping his athletes.

You're either a fantasist or you really are a coach with four Olympic and world medalists who you've juiced to the gills, and now you're backtracking it would be remarkably easy to find a British or Australian (you don't sound American) coach who has precisely FOUR Olympic and World medalists.

Jonathan Gault, prove you're a real journalist. And while you're investigating this guy, how about Japhet Kemei, the coach of Bett (and ,Ferguson Rotich) who was voted Kenyan 'coach of the year' in 2017 and made the coach of the Kenyan team for the Commonwealths this year, despite apparently having a junior athlete already suspended for EPO use who then died aged 20?

And btw, I've never threatened anyone here. If you're a real coach with four major medalists and you're so furious in a doping aplogist thread over the 'racism' of somebody for suggesting doping is worse in Kenya, then you do need to be investigated. You're clearly implying that your elite runners are doped, and that you have inside knowledge that the most other elite runners are doped.

Kiprop 'back in training'. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/28/c_137636716.htm Interesting that the list of five countries deemed most likely to dope include both Kenya and Venezuala.

Together with Ukraine, Ethiopia, Venezuela and Morocco, Kenya has been deemed one of the countries whose athletes are most likely to dope.

I'm sure Kenyan runners feel very much at home in Venezuela...

Coevett wrote:

it would be remarkably easy to find a British or Australian (you don't sound American) coach who has precisely FOUR Olympic and World medalists.

Good luck with that.

I'll make it easier (or more difficult) for you. The "World" bit includes field events and 16-19 y.o. athletes.

As for the rest of your post, linking me, someone you don't know, to PEDs? Laughable.

I'll leave it here. If you find out who my athletes are you will see there is zero suspicion of drug use, and that's because they achieved every result being completely clean.

I will stop replying to you now, because you just lie non-stop and you're a waste of my time.

000 wrote:

I will stop replying to you now,

That's what all the anonymous so called coaches on here end up doing.

Together with Ukraine, Ethiopia, Venezuela and Morocco, Kenya has been deemed one of the countries whose athletes are most likely to dope.

Interesting statement. I wonder where Xinhua got that from.

Here is the top-5 with the most suspicious blood dopers from the Seppelt leak:

Russia 30% (East bloc)

Ukraine 28% (former East)

Turkey 27% (NATO)

Greece 26% (NATO)

Morocco 24% ("top" African)

Further down, one finds:

...

Kenya 11%

...

Ethiopia 8%

With that, Kenya and Ethiopia appear to be cleaner than average:

15% of all athletes in the database had abnormal tests

Coevett wrote:

You're clearly implying that your elite runners are doped, and that you have inside knowledge that the most other elite runners are doped.

Well, that would surprise me at all. During the last years we learned that:

1) likely more than 44% of world championship athletes doped, including the ones who didn't even reach the semifinals;

2) medal winners are more suspicious;

3) gold medal winners are more suspicious than bronze medal winners.

2+3 are somewhat obvious, given that a) PEDs help and b) the temptation/possible earnings etc. are higher at the very top.

In conclusion: about 1/2 of the elite dopes, and that numbers goes up, if you consider only finalists as elite.

(And yes, that differs from country to country, as stated before. )

rekrunner wrote:

What I have argued is that we do not yet have a strong correlation between doping and elite male distance running performance.

Who's "we?" That's not how the IAAF sees it as evident by the santions & annulment of medals, titles, times, etc. by male distance runners who trip their ABP because of too high of Hgb. Stripping an athlete of his medals, titles & times because his Hgb was deemed too high....well if that's not a correlation between doping & performance then I don't know what is.

rekrunner wrote:

My argument for women is similar if we exclude male hormones, especially for middle distance events.

Again, that's not how the IAAF sees it with women either. Many top performing mid-d runners have been sanction with medals, titles & times annulled because of too high of Hgb.

A good example is Aslı Çakır Alptekin who was sanction and her London gold & 2012 EC gold stripped because of too high of Hgb on the eve of these competitions. Other examples are Savinova (800), Hachlaf, (800), Bulut (1500), Ugarova (1500). The details of Alptekin's case is available in the McLaren report & Savinova's CAS is now available. You might want to read some of these cases and better familiarize yourself with the ABP hematological anomalies procedure (and since you're into altitude training - how the expert panel rules out altitude/hi-lo training, etc, which is invariably always used as a defense in these cases, is interesting.).

rekrunner wrote:

So, as an addendum, you scored some positive points , and negative points.

I never talk about benefits of PEDs, because by definition, PEDs unambiguously provide PE. The ambiguity is determining which drugs are PE, for whom, under which conditions.

You correctly identified my belief that the performance enhancement effect of any and all drugs, for male distance events, compared to legal methods like hi-lo altitude training, are grossly overstated/overestimated.

However, I never argued the "correlation doesn't equal causation" BS, because this falsely presumes we have established a correlation.

I guess you've forgotten anti-doping expert Dr. Schumacher's opinion in the Karamsheva CAS hearing (paragraph 77):

77. Moreover, EPO is typically taken as a course of many weeks, not as a single injection. Professer Schumacher explained that it can increase oxygen supply by 6% and take as much as one minute off the time taken to run 10,000 metres, and proportionately more over lesser

distances.

Simple really. wrote:

spade detector wrote:

Performance enhancing drugs are absolutely easier to come by in Kenya. That has nothing to do with my post, though, "idiot".

It has everything to do with your post, it doesn't take any "serious mental gymnastics to twist that into statements that "speak a lot about the odds of him being a doper also.". It's fairly straight forward, all it takes is for a Kenyan runner to make the simple choice to walk in to a pharma bucket shop, no "serious mental gymnastics" required, so "the odds of him being a doper also" are high compared to other countries, history tells us that.

I'll try to help with the comprehension here.

Dumb-dumb said that Managoi's comments about his goals and Kiprop's positive test said a lot about the likelihood of Managoi himself being a doper. I posted the article with the quotes he loosely referred to, and said that it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to try to couch those statements as making Manangoi more likely to be a doper. My post, and the one from Dumb-dumb that I poked holes in, was directly related to Manangoi's statements and whether they made him more likely to be a doper. Full stop.

They were not about if there is a doping problem in Kenya, they were not about whether Manangoi is more likely to dope than someone from a Western country, they were not about if drugs are easier to get in Kenya, etc. My post was that you have to seriously bend over backwards to try to say that Manangoi's comments paint him as a doper, period.

Hopefully this helps your confusion.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I already answered this in the very same post -- doping is not necessarily PED:

"PEDs unambiguously provide PE. The ambiguity is determining which drugs are PE, for whom, under which conditions."

So for ten percent they have negligible benefit, thus in your world they must be placebo.

"homeostasis" "thermoregulation" "springy ankles"

No confusion whatsoever, Dumb-dumb was right that "Managoi's comments about his goals and Kiprop's positive test said a lot about the likelihood of Managoi himself being a doper" and it doesn't take "a lot of mental gymnastics to try to couch those statements as making Manangoi more likely to be a doper". You think in your mind you "poked holes in it", news flash, you didn't.

Also, you don't have to "seriously bend over backwards to try to say that Manangoi's comments paint him as a doper, period.". In fact all it takes for a runner in Kenya is to "walk in to a local pharma bucket shop and part with a few shillings", regardless of Manangoi's or your comments, especially yours as you were wrong.

Hopefully this helps your confusion.

The ease of getting performance enhancing drugs in Kenya is not related to evaluation of the statements that Manangoi made. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend that.

In my world, placebo effect is also a non-negligible benefit.

Subway Surfers wrote:

So for ten percent they have negligible benefit, thus in your world they must be placebo.

I think so too.

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

I think that has been determined over decades of use. ...

I was accused of arguing "correlation doesn't equal causation". I did not ever make this argument.

Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:

... then I don't know what (a correlation between doping & performance) is. ...