Last clean record holder at every event?

Coevett wrote:

That's because he comes from a culture in which doping is more frowned upon and where elite athletes are tested far more frequently.

Citation?

I'm calling you out on this one wrote:

Coevett wrote:

That's because he comes from a culture in which doping is more frowned upon and where elite athletes are tested far more frequently.

Citation?

STFU.

Coevett wrote:

I'm calling you out on this one wrote:

Citation?

STFU.

Same to you Wiseass!

So Cram must be clean because he was the most liked miler on the circuit?

And of all the middle distance runners of the 70’s and 80’s, only Coe gets special mention as having blood doped, despite Cram and Ovett being around in the same era and running similar times!? Interesting, and based on what evidence exactly?

The reason Coe had an 800 pb 1 sec faster than Cram is because Cram’s fastest ever 400 relay was 47.6 and Coe’s was 45.5. And you think blood doping is going to make Coe that much better over 400m? Lol.

Cram’s 5k pb was about 45 secs faster than Coe’s. That sure does suggest that the latter blood doped in order to have such an inferior over distance endurance! Lol.

You do realise what blood doping is for? You do realise the only athletes found to have blood doped or who admitted to it in that period were predominantly 10k runners?

You’ve been arguing on other threads that Cram’s 1:42 .8 was actually worth 1:42.3, and better than Coe’s performances in LA and Stuttgart. Yet now you are stating on here that you can’t see anything faster than 1:42.8 being clean, except of course, that means Cram, as the only clean athlete, was actually worth 0.5 faster than anyone else in history.

You do know that Cram is on record as stating that his fastest ever 400m in training was 48.1 in 1985. Yet you argue he was worth 1:42 low for 800m. Do you understand just how off the scale his endurance would have been ?

Yet someone who has run a 45.6 400m relay from a standing start, and who has run just over half a second faster over 800m, was blood doping (a procedure to increase endurance in distance events) based on not a shred of evidence.

Biased much!?

Another Discussion Forum Tough Guy wrote:

Coevett wrote:

STFU.

Same to you Wiseass!

He’s a lot of things, but wise ain’t one of them.

Deanouk wrote:

Biased much!?

Look who is talking.

You're quite right that it is inconsistent to exclude 1970s/80s Europeans and then include Cram. But Cram was never into the weight-lifting and "scientific training" that Coe was. Steroid tests were conducted at Loughborough in the late 1970s, where Coe was, and he had the toxoplasmosis, which is much more likely to happen with blood doping. I would be shocked if Cram was cheating back then. You are right that American sprinters have a very poor history of doping. That is why I go past Michael Johnson, Maurice Greene, Butch Reynolds, Tyson Gay, and Justin Gatlin, plus a few other 200m runners on my lists. I stick with some college guys simply because I think it is somewhat less likely that college guys not on a big contract were doping in the sprints. That doesn't mean they weren't but I'd bet on the college guy to be clean over the professional. So, by that standard, it would seem more likely that Watts at 43.50 the same year as his last college year, I assume, and Wariner at 44.00 in Athens after his sophomore year, I think, would be clean than, say, Wariner at 43.45 in 2008, I think, after changing coaches from Hart to his disciple. To continue the list: 3000m 49 7:29.00 Bernard Lagat USA 12.12.74 2 Rieti 29.08.2010 Yes, he had an A sample test positive a bunch of years earlier. I think he was clean at this time. However, the doubt is there for a guy who ran 3:26.3. So, second choice is: 100 7:30.93 Ryan Hill USA 31.01.90 4 Saint-Denis 27.08.2016 You may well attack me for that, because it seems absurd that I would be saying that Ryan Hill is the best ever legal at 3k. The reason is that first I think his group is completely clean and second among the guys above, there is an unending pool of guys who are either proven dopers like Mourhit, Baumann, and Saidi-Sief or Jos Hermens guys like Geb and Bekele or other guys from countries with a lot of proven doping (Morocco/Algeria/Kenya) and limited testing (Kenya/Ethiopia). I think that guys from Kenya and Ethiopia should have the fastest legal times at this distance, along with 5 and 10, but I cannot believe with any reasonable certainty that these guys ran those times legally (and morally--which is why I exclude Rupp's 7:30i). I add Henry Rono 7:32.1 and Davey Moorcroft 7:32--maybe. 192 7:32.79 David Moorcroft GBR 10.04.53 1 London 17.07.1982 I am not including Mottram. I have no specific suspicion. The guy was balls out and talented. He also ran incredible times. 5000m Lagat 12:53 and Solinsky 12:55. Other times are epo times. Then you get Ritzenhein, Tegenkamp, Moorcroft and Henry Rono. 10000m Solinsky 26:59.60 then 193 27:08.39 Samuel Chelanga KEN 23.02.85 3r1 Palo Alto 01.05.2010 I always had the sense Chelanga did things the right way, and hence, never exploded to world stardom in the way that so many Kenyan collegians would after college, usually returning to Kenya and dropping huge amounts of time. Then Meb 27:13 then (skipping Brown during the EPO years) Ritz and Rono 27:22 marathon 186 2:06:11 Yuta Shitara JPN 18.12.91 2 Tokyo 25.02.2018 There are just a ton of athletes below this time from countries with limited drug testing and the marathon majors plus didn't even test for much of anything for most of their history. Japan has virtually zero drug positives. Sondre Moen is the only athlete from a country that tests its athletes consistently. Nevertheless, I am not going to jump on this time (2:05:48) as most likely clean. It is too soon to tell. Here again the clean wr would be held by an Ethiopian or Kenyan if all athletes competed clean. But there are just too many non-tested Jos athletes and other suspect European agents and drug doctors represented here. Go ahead, blast away.

casual obsever wrote:

Good arguments, but to be consequent after excluding "European athletes of the 1970s and 1980s, where blood doping was rife", you should also exclude Cram.

Similarly, the American sprinters have a particularly bad history. So if you exclude certain countries because of their history, you should exclude American sprinters too, or even all Americans, like you exclude all Moroccans.

Or, be inconsequent.

that is awesome wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

Biased much!?

Look who is talking.

You clearly don’t grasp the context. If I stated Coe was clean and Cram blood doped, based on nothing other than Cram had marginally faster pbs over 1500m and the mile, that would make me biased. I haven’t claimed that. I’ve simply cited the fact that another poster’s non existent argument, other than the fact that Cram was well liked; and a ridiculous claim that an athlete with a far superior 400 speed must have blood doped, can only have been formulated based on bias.

I don’t believe either doped. Whatever opinions I have, I at least try to back up with facts or some evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

Arguing with you about your idol is pointless. What I will say is that my list concerns my sense, plus evidence where there is any, about who was clean or was at least subject to unannounced tests with limited corruption concerning the results.

I believe that Coe's speed had a lot to do with his strength training and his gains might well have come in part in that era from steroids together with a very smart strength training program. I am suspicious of athletes with particularly technical programs, especially involving weight trainers, who very often work with steroids. A lot of Cram's lack of flat speed is based on the fact that he did not strength train at Coe's level and perhaps equally importantly did not seem to go for serious sprinting workouts. All of Cram's faster training that I have seen was done at target race paces of 800m or above, but on short rest of 15 seconds per 100m run. Specific training is very important in running sub 46, like Coe. Cram ultimately may have stayed healthier longer because he was not trying to run faster than 25 seconds for 200s in workouts, but it certainly hampered both his acceleration, which told in the 1500m against Coe in 1984 (when, however, Cram was not at full strength), and his 400m time.

Everyone liked Cram; he was not known like Coe and Aouita for turning to a major strength training program; Cram had far more natural talent than Coe, running 3:57 at an age that Coe was nothing all that special (at 15, Coe ran 2:00/4:04 1500;

"At Loughborough, he met coach George Gandy, who helped Coe transcend previous performances through more core strength training and more intense interval training sessions.

“When I arrived at Loughborough in the late 1970s some of the conditioning work this guy gave me provided the basis for much of what I achieved. It was revolutionary stuff.”"

Coe

12 y.o.

13.4, 29.2, 65.5, 2:32, 5:24 (1500m), 11:20 (3000m)

13 yo.

28.6, 63.5, 2:21, 4:32, 9:48

14 y.o.

12.2, 24.9, 56.5, 2:08, 4:18, 9:20

15 y.o.

2:00, 4:04, 8:52

16 y.o.

51.8, 1:57

17 y.o. stress fracture (at this age Cram ran 3:57 for the mile)

18 y.o.50.3/1:54/3:45

A year or two later, he dropped to 1:47 at Loughborough.

Here is the progression:

------------------------

800

-----

16: 1:56.0

17: 1:55.1 (injured most of this year)

18: 1:53.8

19: 1:47.7

20: 1:44.95

21: 1:43.97

22: 1:42.33

23: 1:44.7

24: 1:41.73

25: 1:44.01

26: 1:43.80

27: 1:43.64

28: 1:43.07

1500

-----

16: 3:55.0

17: did not run (injured most of the year)

18: 3:45.2

19: 3:42.67

20: did not run (best mile: 3:57.67)

21: did not run (best mile: 4:02.17)

22: 3:32.03

23: 3:38.4

24: 3:31.95

25: 3:39.1

26: 3:37.17

27: 3:32.53

28: 3:32.13

I had a high school teammate run 1:54.8 800m as a sophomore on mostly soccer training in what was beginning to be a weak era for American middle distance running. Coe didn't break that until he was 18, and then dropped five seconds the next year with Gandy and almost three more seconds the year after that to 1:44. Two years later at 22, he was down another 2.6 seconds to 1:42.33. It was not until 19 that he ran the equivalent of a 4:00 mile where his time was nearly identical to marathoner Ryan Hall's best high school time at 18. He then ran 3:57 for the mile at 20, three years older than Cram to do that. Two years later at 22, he was in world record territory with a 3:32.03 (3:49-50 equivalent, so about a 7 or 8 second drop).

Coe's progression at a school where they were doing steroid studies (advertised in the newspaper--this was posted a year or two back) under a strength training coach and his toxoplasmosis are two major data points against him. Maybe he was clean. I doubt it. For Cram there are simply no red flags.

Correction: Coe dropped six seconds in the 800m at 19.

At 19, Cram made the finals in the Olympic 1500 in Moscow.

On my two lists, I pass by many European runners of that era for blood doping. It is very rare for toxoplasmosis to take down a healthy adult male without blood doping. There's one guy claiming he had links to an Italian blood doping guy, Conconi.

"If you're generally healthy, not pregnant, and have been diagnosed with toxoplasmosis, you probably won't need any treatment other than conservative management. If you're pregnant or have lowered immunity, you may need medical management to avoid severe complications.

"Although you can't "catch" toxoplasmosis from an infected child or adult, you can become infected if you:

Come into contact with cat feces that contain the parasite. You may accidentally ingest the parasites if you touch your mouth after gardening, cleaning a litter box or touching anything that has come in contact with infected cat feces. Cats who hunt or who are fed raw meat are most likely to harbor T. gondii.

Eat or drink contaminated food or water. Lamb, pork and venison are especially likely to be infected with T. gondii. Occasionally, unpasteurized dairy products also may contain the parasite. Water contaminated with T. gondii isn't common in the United States.

Use contaminated knives, cutting boards or other utensils. Kitchen utensils that come into contact with raw meat can harbor the parasites unless the utensils are washed thoroughly in hot, soapy water.

Eat unwashed fruits and vegetables. The surface of fruits and vegetables may contain the parasite. To be safe, thoroughly wash and peel all produce, especially any you eat raw.

Receive an infected organ transplant or transfused blood. In rare cases, toxoplasmosis can be transmitted through an organ transplant or blood transfusion."

Zxc... - You don't get it. Cram also made similar (if younger) improvements as Coe (look up his his development). I don't believe that any of these Brits were doping (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Moorecroft, Elliot) - all of whom were Olympic medalists and\or WR-holders. Just as I don't think Jim Ryun, Prefontaine or Alan Webb in America were either.

Sadly we have come into an era where all are suspect, often for no apparent reason but simply to accuse for it's own sake. There is talent everywhere, and the frustration is more on who doesn't develop that talent, rather than who does. It is not as if these Brits had the same coaching situation (as with NOP and Salazar, or Aden or even Ma Junren) they all had different coaches (and so systems) yet all excelled. The modern attitude is that this isn't possible without doping and that is SO defeatist.

I coached a HS kid a couple of years back (NCAA medalist) who has the potential to get to a Coe\Cram level except that he has a poor training background and so is playing catch-up. He may not get there, but doesn't need to dope to do it- the difficulty will be staying in the sport right after College as this is where much talent is lost.

The sport is developing more HS sub-4 milers in the US - are they doping as well? doubtful. In fact what may hurt some is the transition from great HS coaching to mediocre College coaching. There are some terrific College coaches but also too many who don't get long-term development, that the sport exists outside of the NCAA and that development beyond them is what it should be about.

The Overexplainer wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Hmmm, sorry to disappoint, but it's called being proud of your heritage. I do think, however, that some of the aging white suburban hobby joggers who get so upset at the idea that Kenyan young bucks do not actually represent a genetic master race, are indulging in something a bit sexual, a bit of white cuckold fantasy, and definately a bit...ewww.

How definate are you about it?

I'd venture to say he is innately definate about it.

epicTCK wrote:

ryan hall not record eligible

evan jager likely doping according to fancy bears

also all white people your racist af bruh

kipchoge, i'll say, may have doped in younger years, but I doubt he has in 5+ years, give him the thon

he's a super humble, down to earth type of guy.

Finally, although Bekele ran so fast it's unlikely he's clean, there is no evidence (failed test, leaks, coach associations) that lead me to think he doped. Innocent until proven guilty, and there literally isn't a slight bit of evidence. ie: paula isn't officially a doper but she did dope and we all know it. Tirunesh as well, due to association with her dirty af sister. However, guys like Bekele, theirs no dirt.

You SJW types are laughable. It's no coincidence that Kenya started producing armies of runners exactly when EPO arrived on the scene. Ethiopia started soon after. The lie that drugs are more easily obtained in Europe and Asia doesn't hold, as third world countries are the place to go to be able to find and use drugs unfettered.

Kiphchoge was and is doped. He's also four years older than what he claims. Helluva runner, a lot less so if he were natty. He's a great responder to EPO, like Bekele, Geb, and others.

Last natty WR holder in the mile...tough. Morceli or Cram. 1500? Tough. Maybe Morceli. If not, then Cram or Aouita.

800? Kipketer was as dirty as they come. His "malaria" symptoms matched blood doping problems. Coe was accused but was clean. Rudisha was probably clean until he was hurt in 2011. Then his own (ex) coach even hinted at what Rudisha was up to and the unsavory people he was running with.

Aouita was attacked for telling a runner she'd have to use drugs to keep up with the Kenyans etc. because they were drugged. The media always leaves the last part out. The snowflake took it the PC way and accused him of advocating doping, all the better to protect their pets in E. Africa.

Last clean 5k record holder? Aouita. 10k? Mamede or Barrios.

Marathon? Possibly Dinsamo (yes, an E. African!) Or Lopes. Khannouchi possibly simply because he was living in the US and was actually randomly tested out of competition, unlike literally all E. Africans.

So there. Snowflakes.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Correction: Coe dropped six seconds in the 800m at 19.

At 19, Cram made the finals in the Olympic 1500 in Moscow.

Coe's father didn't crank up the training for Seb until he was 17 (Coe basically missed one season with stress fractures btw). Hell, I went from 1:55 to 1:46 in three years and I wasn't world class. But you are, as in world class idiot. Clayton Murphy went from 1:54.9 to 1:50 to 1:45 to 1:42 - basically 12 seconds in three years and looked like 1:41 was next til he got hurt after opening last season with a 1:43. He wasn't doped. You know nothing about talent. Or what happens when someone with talent turns up the heat in their training.

You'd probably see a few more fast Europeans if they were interested in the sport. Having to watch E. Africans laugh and joke and dope while knowing most officials are on a leash and allowing them to do so has made Europeans and other figure they should do something else. How long this will go on remains to be seen.

Another Discussion Forum Tough Guy wrote:

Coevett wrote:

STFU.

Same to you Wiseass!

You sound like the type of Reddit millenial snowflake who cries 'citation' when your mummy tells you to wipe your ass. Then when she demonstrates it, you randomly pick one of a 'Wikepedia list of logical fallacies' and shout it at her.

It's interesting that Gareth Bale (the footballer who earns a million a week playing for Real Madrid) had an 800m time 10 seconds faster than Coe at age 12, and East African racists like Heil Keinio laugh at the idea he could have been a world class runner if he hadn't preferred to earn a million euros a week playing for Real Madrid - because Bale is white and therefore does not have the correct physiology (East African). I'm not saying Bale was more talented than Coe, of course, just saying that to anybody but a fool, it's clear that a hell of a lot of European running talent, especially middle-distance, goes into football these days. Bale was running 2:20 800m at 12 almost entirely off his football training/playing. He was also a very underveloped 12 year old (like Coe) and it was thought he might not be sturdy enough for athletics let alone a football career.

I'm glad you pointed out Kipketer and his malaria as no less suspicious than Coe's blood disorder. Not saying it is suspicous at all actually (or Coe's infection), but I wonder why people like Ventilan point the finger at Coe for his illness and yet never mention Kipketer or Bayi's malaria as being suspicious?

Cram did muscle up in 88, you can google image search his changing physique at this time. If Crammy ever did take peds (and I don't think he, or Coe or Ovett ever did), it probably was at this point. It's clear that the defeat to Gonzalez in 87 really did affect his confidence, and perhaps he was being told or he suspected that some of his rivals were now taking 'supplements'.

Coe was exceptional over 3,000m at ages 14-18. But he wasn't exceptional over 800m this is correct.

But I'm trying to work this out in a neutral way, as a senior Coe was lousy over 2-5,000m (events that blood doping & epo become very obvious in) which somehow makes him suspect but Moorcroft who was really for years a 3:53 miler, a journeyman and on numerous attempts he only ever ran 1320-plus for 5,000m. Then in a short period of mid-June to mid-July 1982 he runs 3:49, nearly breaks the WR in 7:32 but smashes the World 5,000m record by like 6s and running 23s+ faster than he ever ran before, in a race with next to no pacing, by himself, a time that if he ran it 15-20 years later with the epo era competition he would have easily run 12:50 and yet he never came near this time or any of his purple patch times ever again. Yet you have him listed near the top of the clean times in each event (3k & 5k). This has a Viren smell about it.

"Toxoplasmosis is an infection caused by a parasite. This parasite is called Toxoplasma gondii. It can be found in cat feces and undercooked meat, especially venison, lamb, and pork. It can also be transmitted through contaminated water." So either Coe was a cat lover or he got food poisoned (the likely explanation).

Strangely the only person who pushes the Toxoplasmosis line is Ventolin. Hmmm ?

Coevett wrote:

Cram did muscle up in 88, you can google image search his changing physique at this time. If Crammy ever did take peds (and I don't think he, or Coe or Ovett ever did), it probably was at this point. It's clear that the defeat to Gonzalez in 87 really did affect his confidence, and perhaps he was being told or he suspected that some of his rivals were now taking 'supplements'.

You are one funny guy. We all knew about the 'supplements' since at least the mid 70s. You yourself mentioned Beyer several times - and that Coe was a fan of the GDR's, say, training methods.