Chumpeast buster wrote:
You do understand that Centrowitz won in the slowest time since 1952. This was a miracle fluke of epic proportions. I'm talking Moses parting the red sea type of circumstances.
You shouldn't consider the winning time AT ALL. Gold is Gold. He had to run 50.6 last lap to win, and what, 1:46 last 800m?
It was a big upset but not a miracle. As someone said before, it was like Cacho beating Morceli in 1992.
rightside wrote:
captainwildcat wrote:The chopping of Lagat's career is what makes this an interesting question. If we compare overall Lagat to overall Centrowitz then Lagat wins easily. He has a world title and a world bronze at 1500m (as an American) and Olympic Bronze and Silver and world champs Silver during his time representing Kenya as well as all those ridiculously fast times. The only thing standing in the way of Lagat being in the conversation for greatest ever is El G, who Lagat had the misfortune of competing against and losing to so much. Lagat has also won big races and won a slew of US titles Not to mention his longevity. He has also had a bit of success at 3000m and 5000m as an american, but that is a different discussion.
It's silly to include Lagat. Non-natives to the USA should not be included in the discussion, especially when they competed for a foreign country in the Olympics. Ranking him ahead of the part of Lagat that competed for the USA just adds confusion. He's either in or out, and he has to be out.
He is either in or out ? That is stupidest troll statement of this entire thread. Lagat is a U. S. citizen. I guess when all U.S. ancestors came to the U.S. from other countries none of those contributions should count either.
Chumpeast buster wrote:
rightside wrote:It's silly to include Lagat. Non-natives to the USA should not be included in the discussion, especially when they competed for a foreign country in the Olympics. Ranking him ahead of the part of Lagat that competed for the USA just adds confusion. He's either in or out, and he has to be out.
He is either in or out ? That is stupidest troll statement of this entire thread. Lagat is a U. S. citizen. I guess when all U.S. ancestors came to the U.S. from other countries none of those contributions should count either.
That is retarded. If Lagat was born in Kenya but competed pro for USA for whole career then he would be included. Although, I think there should be a category for best native born ever.
Since the majority of his success at 1500m came as a Kenyan, including him in the discussion is silly. Splitting his career up is silly. Get it?
How can you say that when Lagat won a won a world title at 1500m , set an indoor American record in the 1500m and mile, and outdoor American record in 1500m ? Yeah that is just silly. Cacho's Olympic win was at least 10 seconds faster and yeah Centrowitz's win was a bonafide miracle.
Hayduke wrote:
step 1. get rid of the citrus tatt
step 2. break american record
step 3. dominate world at mile/1500 in non championship races(do they still give out the gold bar at the end of league season?)
step 4. break world record.--- can't be best ever without world record.
It's not "citrus," it's "citius," you illiterate. Do you see an orange or grapefruit tat on him?
And "American" should always be capitalized.
My tax dollars wasted on your education.
Chumpeast buster wrote:
How can you say that when Lagat won a won a world title at 1500m , set an indoor American record in the 1500m and mile, and outdoor American record in 1500m ? Yeah that is just silly. Cacho's Olympic win was at least 10 seconds faster and yeah Centrowitz's win was a bonafide miracle.
Morceli was more dominant than Kiprop, although the upset happened earlier in his career.
Centro already medaled twice at Worlds. So, what are you talking about a miracle? If you medaled twice already, kind of by definition, getting the gold is not a miracle.
I realize I was typing a little fast when I put down 52 , I meant 1932. 19 freaking 32!
Chumpeast buster wrote:
You do understand that Centrowitz won in the slowest time since 1952. This was a miracle fluke of epic proportions. I'm talking Moses parting the red sea type of circumstances.
If you would have told the runners at the start of the 1500 that the winning time would be 3:50.00 unless they changed their first laps tactics then the result would have been closer to 3:30.00.
rightside wrote:
Chumpeast buster wrote:How can you say that when Lagat won a won a world title at 1500m , set an indoor American record in the 1500m and mile, and outdoor American record in 1500m ? Yeah that is just silly. Cacho's Olympic win was at least 10 seconds faster and yeah Centrowitz's win was a bonafide miracle.
Morceli was more dominant than Kiprop, although the upset happened earlier in his career.
Centro already medaled twice at Worlds. So, what are you talking about a miracle? If you medaled twice already, kind of by definition, getting the gold is not a miracle.
How many times has Centrowitz beaten Kiprop? It was a miracle The absolute most ridiculous circumstances to win a race,2:16 first 800m, Kemwoi falling, etc. Who cares if he had a medal from before. Australia has medal in basketball from before. If they had beat the U.S. it would have been a miracle too.
I'm going to throw even more gas on this fire and say Centrowitz isn't even the best American at 1500 this year. That would be Clayton Murphy. Yeah I said it. Murphy beat him on the kick right before the Olympics and was undefeated at the 1500m this year. I'd say Centrowitz got lucky he didn't decide to go for it at the trials.
I don't understand you guys.
Think of the top milers/1500m runners of all time (same event or close enough for me).
El Guerrouj is probably #1.
Jim Ryun is certainly top 10, probably top 5 if you went by polling. Centro is not.
Google around for any discussion of "Top Mile/1500m runners of all time" -- not just American milers -- and you'll see Jim Ryun mentioned.
Now, do you really think winning an OG gold automatically puts you in the discussion for top 10 all-time or possibly greatest milers of all time? No. First, because there have been a lot of OG golds in the modern era and we don't talk about all of them, and second, because there have been a couple of guys with more modest records who won the OG (Cacho, Vasala, Makhloufi). Sure, Centro has won some other stuff too, but I mean Cacho won Gold and Silver in back-to-back Olympics and I bet most of you didn't even know that, I'd forgotten it until I googled it just now.
In conclusion, my point is that the fact that Jim Ryun is considered one of the best *milers* of all time, and Centro is not, means that Jim Ryun must be the better (IMO best) *American* miler of all time until people start talking about Centro on those terms.
Sourced wrote:
Coach wrote:With these times I'd consider him America's best ever.
How does he compare to Ovett who never had Olympic gold in the 1500 Who would you say is better?
That is a good question and hard to answer due to Ovett's quality over 800m. Obviously we are talking about mile/1500 but it is hard to discount what he did at 800.
I'd say they are quite close, with Ovett obviously being considerably faster over a mile, a bit slower in the 1500 and a OG bronze (although the US wasn't at that Olympics, so he may not have that if the US is there).
I understand that Ryun was head and shoulders better and was absolutely breaking ground and ceilings in running, but the WR argument does not do it for me. Times are times, and you can adjust them as you see fit for tracks/shoes (Except do not trust Ventolin because then we have JR with a 3:20 PB). Even if you are rather liberal with Ryun's times and say 3:28 and 3:44, his (relative) lack of longevity bothers me.
Ryun has always been one of my idols and don't blame you for saying he is the US GOAT.
HOWEVER, I simply cannot agree that Webb's resume is better than Centro's. Winning one DL (or Golden League, whatever it was called) race doesn't mean much to me. The French 800m man won 2 DL races this year- does anyone care now that Murhpy beat him at the OG??
I think Centrowitz ran brilliantly to get gold in Rio and is definitely in the discussion to US all time top 1500/miler guy, but his record isn't close to Ovett's, as you suggest.
Ovett won Olympic bronze, beaten by Coe's tremendous kick and Straub's probable doping regime. The Americans being there wouldn't have changed that result.
But he did break WRs at both 1500 and mile, 2 apiece, and was unbeaten over both distances for 45 races and almost 4 seasons. I would be surprised if Centro has won half of his races on the European circuit.
Ovett was also ranked world no. 1 for 3 years and runner up 2 or 3 times. That's 6 seasons where he was ranked higher than Centrowitz's best ranking to date. Of course that might change,
There weren't bi annual world champs in Ovett's day, but he did win 2 World Cup golds against the best on offer at the time, and a European gold.
His accumulated pb'd at 1500 and 1 mile are better than Centro's, and he was competing 35 years ago at his best.
In fact I'd have to put Ovett above Ryun too. He was winning races and medals over a longer period than Ryun.
Centrowitz needs at least 1 No. 1 ranking and a couple of US records to reach Ryun's position. But I bet he's not too bothered, as he has the single most important accolade in any athlete's career.
Jim Ryun may have only gotten silver, but was capable of 3:25 in a modern setup. Also, he closed in 49 vs. Norpoth in a much faster race than 3:50. If Centro goes 3:25.99, he's got it, though.
Ryun4eva wrote:
Jim Ryun may have only gotten silver, but was capable of 3:25 in a modern setup. Also, he closed in 49 vs. Norpoth in a much faster race than 3:50. If Centro goes 3:25.99, he's got it, though.
Haha. Ryun wouldn't have run 8 secs or 60m faster on a synthetic track. That's plain silly.
He never ran a 49 sec last 400. It was 50.6 against the Germans in a 3:38.2. And the previous lap was 60 secs.
I think if he breaks 3:30 in the 1500 or 3:48 in the mile that would seal it as best American ever. Even if he doesn't win those races.
It's not just talent, or what you did, but it is having the courage, when you have the talent, to get a WR. It's the difference between chasing times and setting times. It's an esoteric difference, but important.
Sourced wrote:
I don't understand the WR argument. He is faster than Ryun was! Just because the WR is faster now and unattainable does not make him worse than Ryun.. Please explain.
gadsdafgda wrote:
I don't understand you guys.
Think of the top milers/1500m runners of all time (same event or close enough for me).
El Guerrouj is probably #1.
Jim Ryun is certainly top 10, probably top 5 if you went by polling. Centro is not.
Google around for any discussion of "Top Mile/1500m runners of all time" -- not just American milers -- and you'll see Jim Ryun mentioned.
Now, do you really think winning an OG gold automatically puts you in the discussion for top 10 all-time or possibly greatest milers of all time? No. First, because there have been a lot of OG golds in the modern era and we don't talk about all of them, and second, because there have been a couple of guys with more modest records who won the OG (Cacho, Vasala, Makhloufi). Sure, Centro has won some other stuff too, but I mean Cacho won Gold and Silver in back-to-back Olympics and I bet most of you didn't even know that, I'd forgotten it until I googled it just now.
In conclusion, my point is that the fact that Jim Ryun is considered one of the best *milers* of all time, and Centro is not, means that Jim Ryun must be the better (IMO best) *American* miler of all time until people start talking about Centro on those terms.
Fermin Cacho has the resume of one of the greats of all time. He ran 3:28.95 and held the European record until Farah nipped it and has an Olympic gold and silver. Centro is not Cacho yet.
The most amazing thing about this thread is how underrated Liquori is.
Chumpeast buster wrote:
I'm going to throw even more gas on this fire and say Centrowitz isn't even the best American at 1500 this year. That would be Clayton Murphy. Yeah I said it. Murphy beat him on the kick right before the Olympics and was undefeated at the 1500m this year. I'd say Centrowitz got lucky he didn't decide to go for it at the trials.
The Clayton Murphy who did not even qualify for the US Olympic trials in the 1500? The Clayton Murphy who mostly won 1500s against college kids (Olympic Gold >>>NCAA champ), yes Murphy outkicked Centro in a 1000m race that was a tune up for both athletes, but 1000m is much closer to Murphy's event the 800m than it is to Centro's. Also, the guy who got second to Centro in the 1500 beat Murphy in the 800.
Lol @ "lucky Clayton didn't decide to go for it"
Clayton didn't make it to the Olympic Trials and the guy says he's better than the Olympic Champ...tough crowd