Round II: New German ARD TV doping report coming out tomorrow - Kenya/Russia

The response to hard training is not the same for everybody. The most part of the top runners are able to raise their total volume of blood of 20% - 25%. With this type of athletes, I'm practically sure EPO doesn't give any advantage, instead can reduce their performances, due to a big increase of blood viscosity.

One of the parameters I found with all the top class athletes I coached, is the very low viscosity. It's possible to verify this situation with a very simple test :

ask an athlete (also top level) to run, at sea level, one test lasting between 1 minute and 1'30" at his max speed, climbing with a gradient of about 5%. At the end, control his HR (for example, he's able to reach 220 beats).

Go altitude over 2000m, and repeat the same test. Nobody among these athletes is able to go over 200 beats, because of the lack of Oxygen. With the hypoxia, muscle fibers are not able to have O2 enough for removing lactate in fast way, and for that reason they ask to make faster the circulation, but this is an "overload" for the work of the heart, which, on the other side, has less possibility to work because is itself a muscle, needing O2 for recovering.

So, what happens in altitude for athletes normally at sea level is that the heart loses about 10% of the ability to work at max intensity, but also loses about 10% of the basic HR when resting, for the higher request of O2 by the muscle fibers (for example, 40 - 220 at sea level becomes 50 - 200 in altitude).

Instead, if we do the same test with athletes born, living and training in altitude, we can see the values in altitude and at sea level are prtactically the same. This means the athletes of altitude have more Oxygen at their disposal, and don't need any increase in the velocity of blood circulation.

This happens because they have a blood with very little viscosity. In this situation, to increase the ability to transport oxygen, and at the same time the viscosity, not only doesn't produce any advantage, but frequently can reduce the level of the performances (also if this seems absurd to people looking at blood parameters only).

I don't know if I was able to explain what happens in the physiology of top African athletes (born, living and training in altitude), compared with what happens in the physiology of top athletes born and living the most part of time at sea level, since for me is difficult to explain in English Language in a way that can be clear for everybody. It's a fact I have clear ideas of the problem, looking at the big mass of data I collected during the last 30 years, with Italian at sea level, Italian in altitude, African in altitude, African at sea level for short time, African at sea level for long time, Chinese in altitude, Young and old athletes, males and females, etc....

I don't want to put in doubt the comment of the two Australian scientists.

However, the numbers can't explain any situation : if there were 12,000 tests for 5,000 athletes, the average is 2,4 tests for each athlete, and with this number is ABSOLUTELY not possible to have some info about the individual NORMALITY.

It's evident that, for speaking about ABNORMAL data, before we need to know which are the NORMAL data, and, how I explained before, the normality can be only INDIVIDUAL, not considered inside the average of 5000 athletes. For Bordin winning Olympics with 12.8 Hb and 39.7 Hct, we have Genny Di Napoli who was in anemia when his values were under 18 and under 52.

This means that the only way is to have longitudinal tests, both OOC and IC, for not less than 6-10 times in a period of time of 2-3 years, and this is not what happened, looking at the numbers we had (12,000 test for 5,000 athletes).

The last thing is about the cost. Yesterday we had here in Cantalupa a task force of IAAF coming from Switzerland for testing (blood and urine) the best Chinese athlete, Ding Changqin, winning Chongqin Marathon in 2:26:54 and finishing 16th after 6 days only in WCCCh.

How much can be the cost for this test : about 400 Euros for the travel by car (the two doctors came together, but many times they come individually from different places), 150 Euros for two days of accommodation in the same hotel of the athlete, of course something for them (I don't know how much can be their salary), plus the real cost of the test. This means not less than 1200 - 1500 Euros for testing an athlete who is not in the top in the World. We have in athletics (speaking about the top 20 in the world only) about 700 athletes in the whereabouts regime. Supposing to have 5-7 tests each one every season (the minimum for having data enough for building a biological passport), we need to have about 5000 tests, with a supposed cost of almost 10 millions Euro, only in athletics (but Wada is in charge of all the sports). We need to add the cost of maintainance of all the labs officially recognized for antidoping, plus the cost for the central organization. The final cost, in this way, becomes very high, and I don't think there is all this money for increasing the number of tests dramatically.

On the other side, I can't agree that in the sport we have to use more money for antidoping than the money we use for promoting the activity.

For that reason, I continue to think we have to change the message we send to normal people about sport and doping. We need to give , more emphasis to the educational values, at the same time putting doping (I speak about blood doping) in a different perspective : with the absolute best it doesn't work, and also for athletes of medium level the advantages they can have are not so high to justify this choice, that, I repeat, produces the final effect to make more rich pharmacological Companies and not honest doctors, cheating the athletes.

For really knowing what happens with doping, we need to approach the data without any idea already in our mind (in one or another direction), and we can't study the effects without knowing the real effects of training.

The fact, instead, is that ALL people of antidoping starts every research, and every action, with the idea that doping produces incredible results, that is not possible to be competitive without doping, and so everybody is guilty.

I know this is not true, and for that reason I ask to change approach, studying what happens with proper training, not only in the body, but also in the mind of the top runners.

Just one note on the Daily Mail data - the US seems to be cleanish.Nick Willis talks about culture and I really think that matters here.

The list is this:

According to the Daily Mail, New Zealand had the lowest number of abnormal blood tests at two.

Russia led the way with 30 followed by Ukraine (27), Turkey (26) and Greece (24).

Australia had three and Great Britain four.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/athletics/news/article.cfm?c_id=19&objectid=11491256&ref=rss

Just saw a brojo entry with more data. 32 is high, but relatively low. not sure what to think now.

Russia 415, Ukraine 102, Morocco 82, Spain 81, Kenya 77, Turkey 52, Greece 42, Belarus 42, Romania 32, Portugal 32, USA 32, Britain 12

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6666111#ixzz3hlA7vDh6

???2h 18min is way behind the best Kenyan?Do you have any idea that Jeptoo is a female marathoner and what the 2h 18m time stands in women's marathon?Still, the question is that Jeptoo's time under Canova had been stagnant and all of a sudden she got a 2min boost after she changed coach (started doping). How does that tell you doping doesn't work for the top Kenyan runners?!And for Agip,It is not surprising that the US and the Britain have less blood abnormalities in the report compared to other countries as it may reflect the facts that 1) they have the most sophisticated doping regiments (as implied in the report and follow-up reports from other news outlets, and that 2) these countries have a less (in comparison to that of Russia and Kenya) corrupt anti-doping agency and to pass the doping tests, in turns, the athletes in US and UK do need to be more cautious about doping to not get caught and exposed.

Impartial observer wrote:

SIH. I suppose that one could argue that 2h 18 min for a marathon is just way behind the best Kenyans so it is normal that EPO would work in an athlete of this calibre, EPO just does not work in the top-tier Kenyans, it may even slow them down...

Renato's disinformation of "doping doesn't work on top Kenyans" stands in perfect parallel with the bribe system in the Kenyan federation (protecting those athletes at the top), and stands in opposition to the findings of ARD that doping is more prevalent among the top competitors and that in Kenya "...the smaller fish follow the example of bigger fish and seek the same drugs".

Before these revelations and the Jiptoo/Kisorio busts, RC's schtick was "Kenyans are clean, too poor and humble for the drugs". Now that we see film of athletes being injected, testimony of both athletes and coaches about EPO and other drugs: "These are the poorest athletes, the actually talented athletes don't do this". Renato actually believes that their are enough idiots on letsrun to buy his huckster product, just as the Kenyans and Chinese have over the years.

Also amusing how RC claims a wind-aided 2:03:06 as part of his illustrious resume. Propaganda is an Italian-origin word for good reason.

Nutella1 wrote:

@Renato:

What about testosterone?

According to the documentary, you can simply walk into a doctors office in Kenya and get a testosterone injection (and never get tested for it). We know from cycling (and other sports) that this is a very powerful drug, especially for women. Improves recovery and basically allows you to squeeze in another hard session per week.

So, does testosterone work on Kenyans?

They are called anti-aging clinics in the U.S.

Testosterone abuse is widespread because the positive threshold is so high. Of course, it helps that they won't test for exogenous Test until you cross the 4:1 threshold. Which, is way, way waaaay above the norm 1:1.

I didn't want to believe it at the time, but it looks like SG was right about corruption in national feds, ADA's, and the IAAF.

Makes you wonder how far a couple of bucks will go.

fred wrote:

Ben Johnson got screwed, but the other sprinters were protected by their ADA's.

.

There were no ADA's to protect their sprinters in 1988.

Renato,I don't know if your explanation of EPO not working on top athletes with increased blood volume is true or not, I do, however, appreciate a clearer explanation of your opinion.

1/3 of medallists having a suspicious blood values implies systematic doping in athletics. I don't think it implies that 1/3 of medalists doped. It could be more or less than 1/3.

Does anyone know what WADA classifies as a suspicious blood value?

1 - Nutella, my answer is : yes, I think testosterone can work with Kenyans too. This has nothing to do with the "classic" blood doping, and nothing to do with or without altitude. So, for what I know, testosterone can work with everybody.

2- About the pregnancy, your example is the opposite of what generally happens. If Kara Goucher was not able to go back her best shape, this is not the normal behaviour.

I give you a list of top women, stronger after pregnancy than before :

Florence Kiplagat (two daughters, every time became better)

Edna Kiplagat (twice World Champion after having children)

Mary Keitany (PB in HM after the baby)

Sylvia Kibet (two silver medals in 5000 in WCh 2009-11, had baby in 2004)

Sonia O'Sullivan (winning WCCCh in 1998 few months after the motherhood)

Valeria Straneo (silver in WCh 2013 in Moscow after two children)

Joe Pavey (better now that is 41 than before)

Elisa Rigaudo (bronze in Olympics in 20 km walk after the first daughter)

... and the most part of Kenyans between 2:22 and 2:25 are all moms.

3- Logically flawed, you need to know the real history of Rita before trying some conclusion.

She started with me, only 18, in Italy (1999), and nobody thought she could become a long distance runner, looking at her technical action. After two years in short distances, she ran in 2002 her first HM, and in 2004 the first Marathon, winning both Stockholm (2:35) and Milan (2:28).

In 2005 she came in my training camp, remaining all the season, and improved to 2:24 in Helsinki (WCh). We planned Boston 2006 after the Championships, and she was Always in training in Iten, showing to be incredibly hard worker.

In Boston, she arrived only 8 hours before the race, for Visa problems. During the race, she remained 35 km with the favourite Prokopchuka, and after increased the speed, running the last 12 km (from 30 till 42) faster than the top 10 men in the race (go to see the splits....).

With a competition at the pace of 2014, she was already able to run in 2:21.

After Boston, the problems started : she married with Noah Busienei (nicknamed Bush), who wanted to become her coach, and for two years her training was a combination of workouts without clear goal, in full confusion.

She had a baby in 2009, and personally I never supposed she could be back, because she became 20 kg heavier. Only at the end of 2010 she started training again, and spent one year for running, at the end of 2011, in 2:25:44 in Frankfurt. During the next winter, she had still training under the programs of the husband, and the situation became worse : she ran only 2:35:53 in Boston, so decided to go to a “real” coach, Claudio Berardelli, working with Federico Rosa. After 5 full months of training, together with Priscah Jeptoo, Rita was 2nd in Chicago with her new PB of 2:22:04, a performance technically less important than the 2:23:38 in Boston 2006.

But this competition gave her a big motivation, and from that time, she never stopped training, finally using high intensity during winter. For that reason, she lowered her PB in HM, running 66:27 in February (Ras al Khaimah).

After this, a new victory in Boston (2:26:25) and, at the end of the season, the explosion in Chicago, first time under 2:20. Another winter with full training, and the time of Boston 2014 (2:18:57) was the obvious consequence of her work : don’t forget Boston 2014 was the deepest marathon ever, with 4 athletes under 2:21, and 6 under 2:22, thank to the pace of Shalane Flanagan, who ran in 2:22.

Personally, I think Rita was clean till winter 2013-2014, and started to take something before Boston only. However, I don’t see any effect of doping in her performance : if the race was tactically run like the previous year (when she won in 2:26:15), and her winning time was 2:24, now nobody could say she won for her doping.

On the opposite, if in her first victory in Boston 2006 she had a Shalane Flanagan running in front such as in 2014, probably the final time was already very close 2:20.

Looking at times for marathon is an exercise that can provoke great confusion, not giving a right position to the athletes in the Marathon World (look the seasonal position of the World Champions and the Olympic Champions at the end of the year, when they prepared these events in specific way).

4. Last thing regards one of the worst posters in LR. I speak about some idiot who invents facts that don’t exist, a demagogue megalomaniac who wants to show he knows everything about doping and the best athletes all time, while is only a poor psychopathic with symptoms of schizophrenia.

I don’t want to say his nickname, because who reads LR can easily recognize his posts.

He thinks to be a “poet of doping” looking at the way he write using only a part of the space, shows to know everything about illegal substances not yet in the market, speaks about “mircera” for the best athletes in the World of some year ago, said Bekele was not injured but blocked by IAAF because of doping, and lives in a continue nightmare only dreaming of doping. I let everybody decide who this schizophrenic can be.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me, Renato, I appreciate it.

As for the reason behind mothers seemingly getting a boost in performance, do you have any ideas why?

Is it possible the brain is permanently rewired during pregnancy to not sense pain with as much acuity as it did before pregnancy? A sort of protective mechanism of sorts that would keep women in labor from passing out due to too much pain?

Certainly most people could run slightly faster if they experienced less pain under maximal effort.

I just watched the documentary (having read the Sunday Times on Sunday) and I'm starting to think this is just the media trying to make a lot of noise. The IAAF may have been moving slowly, but it is moving.

So we get tons of suspicious blood values from 2001-2012. The last 5min of the documentary makes perfectly clear that, according to the rules at the time, a suspicious blood value alone could not justify a ban. So it's a bit cheeky to start pointing out that only a few of those people were busted.

Instead, it seems like this data may have guided further requests for followup tests, but with federations dragging their feet or covering up.

Then, having gathered enough data, they implemented the passport and have doubled their anti-doping spend. One third of suspicious athletes have been sanctioned. (And guess what, we knew that - look at all the Russians and Kenyans getting busted in large numbers). The doping authorities still have to follow procedure, and have a burden of proof and a duty of privacy. They sadly can't just bust somebody for one high blood value. The slightest glitch in the chain of custody or the technology could let it be challenged. And we know nothing about 2013-2015.

Obviously there is a lot more which could be done. Delegating stuff to national federations who see their job as making sure their runners show up clean, or who take bribes, clearly isn't working. You need to pair up the testers, send a team of Russian docs to test the Kenyans and vice versa. Set quotas for tests taken, award extra WC places for running really good programmes and take them away for bad ones.

Iwasthresawthat wrote:

But lets make one f!@# thing clear here, Mo Farah is not in that group guys. He is freakishly the most talented 32 yld the world has ever seen!! Fast and constantly improving!

Did you hear how cyclist did it? Just balance blood bags and microdosed EPO to keep all your values aligned.

If they test blood at all, it doesn't say how much blood the body contained. Or how they blood cells were nudged into existence.

Floyd Landis was I think the first to explain the simple procedure on how not to get caught. It takes intel, and money. And he was not caught for blood doping but for testosterone he was not on at the time, nor when filling his blood bags.

If anything, sound values by Farah says that if he (also) blood dopes, he does so very professionally.

Like a house that may or may not have been robbed/visited. There are no signs of forced entry, nothing seems to be missing, but how do we know there was not a porn shoot there unless we find the footage?

Cycling in the 00's was stuffed with blood dopers leveling their values nicely. Some of the athletes who get foreknowledge (appointment) for tests, balance their levels so well that the consistency becomes the red flag. Amateurs, even in their pro results, doping and corrruption :-)

This is quite interesting. I wonder if you have any sense of this observation as a test for altitude responders.

Nothing will change ,usual story of

more money more tests equals less doping

only get more Mo's and nike's where only

they have means to dope....

Ah mister canova ,more pseudo b.s

We all know kenya males have a much lower natural hct compared to europeans

which proves nothing.

but it does prove that more enhancement

to be had from upping it unnaturally...........

NOW , testosterone works on kenyans !!

but alas epo will offer no enhancement.....

but does testosterone not stimulate epo

receptors in kidney to produce much higher hct than for previous natural levels.

besides other benefits of testosterone

could this be reason aids kenyans

therefore negating your previous asseration that

" epo does not work on kenyans" idiotico.

interested in maths wrote:

1/3 of medallists having a suspicious blood values implies systematic doping in athletics. I don't think it implies that 1/3 of medalists doped. It could be more or less than 1/3.

Does anyone know what WADA classifies as a suspicious blood value?

Ashenden's interviews at NYVelocity.com are good and maybe a start.

In reply to end of "bekele's dominance "

absolutely to do with MICERA being off cards from summer 2008.

Had to switch to lesser generation epo's

and no more indoors ,no more cross ctry ,

no more free reign on dope .

Again why didnt iaaf retrotest for it before

2008 .

And why no Suspious blood values for

any ethiopian

.bekele and haile at very least are two.

That list is fixed . why such protection offered to them. And Iaaf is fixed.

EPO doesn't work on top African athletes. Now I've heard it all... of course they're all afraid of needles too...