Van Aaken and Harald Norporth training insights and

Ronny.You are a slow thinker?. You do not understand me.

What I try to tell is that if you run 5000 in 13.00 and have a PB of 50/400m, if you then mantain the same endurance and add some sprint training you can 49sek/400m.

Now you will be able to run 5000m 12,5 sek faster, that is 12.47,50. Offcourse you must maintain the endurance and adjust the specific sessions. Agree?

Runny wrote:

Eur. champ.ship 1971

800m heat 2: 5. Fernando Mamede 1.48.4

1500m heat 1: 11. Fernando Mamede 3.49.3

Olympics 1972

1500m heat 7: 6. Fernando Mamede 3.45.1

not qualified for further rounds.

It seems that he has had the same problem through all his career: Not able to run chapoinships but a superb runner without mental pressure.

Runny you are wrong ! Mamede did several medals as a Junior (european and world - i guess) in 400m and 800m.

Also the fact that he did´n´t qualified for that 1971 and 1972 Champs have to do with another reasons but not with phychological problems that he faced later on. But that would be too extensive to explain to you the reasons why he didn´t qualified for that competitions.

But one more info for the record. During that Mamede earlier years since their first seasons as a senior - and as a 800/15000m specialist at that time - he did win lots of long crosses in Portugal and also comes behing Lopes in all major portuguese long cross champs. So as you see he did not just did the speed but also did a good endurance condition since his early career.

You also need to know that Mamede did win more portuguese cross champs in 12 kilos distance than Carlos Lopes !

I think that some of this few facts areenough to prove Mamede endurance, don´t you think ?

Bjorn

I see your point, you are right, but not completly right.

I saw Dieter Bauman training here in my local trcak a lot of accasions. You are right, continuous runs were really slow, some 5min/kilo, most of the fast pace were done mainly in the track. But in one detail you are wrong. That detail about Dieter training thats´enough to dismiss all completly all relate try with van Aaken method.

That´s the fact that Bauman did use classic intervall-training method from german school - that mean to work withn uncomplete recover duration. And this is one major training format that van Aaken disagrees and contest and their runners they avoid - they never do classic intervall training, intensive or extensive.

It would be a good idea that people - young people - undrestood what the interval training originakl idea as Gresheller and Reidell did it as a training method. actually people uses intervals with no criteria at all. The interval training in his original fundament - that work with uncomplete recover, more than with the pace. Actually people says "I did a good workout 15X400m for 64sec with 1 min rest standing, when in the other day i did that for 66sec average." But in interval training classic style - extensive interval training in German school - the real goal that you do the same 66sec pace but with a short recover duration and then inn the second level priority, more sets and only in the end of then line is that when it comes to faster the pace, more pace intensity.

Sorry about trying to explain Mamede's career without having proper info. Shortcuts are not always wise.

Also I didn't know that he was that good at long distances while running middle distance. So, yes it proves that he had both endurance capacity and speed. Physically on of the most complete distance runners?

Roony

You also need to consider this. What age do you think that Fernando Mamede did in 1972 Munique olympics ?

20 years old ! At that time with 20 years old he was then the portuguese 800m/1500m record. If you read that 1972 results carefully you will see that in the heats that he wasn´t qualified (!) he did 800m PB and that´s also 800m Portuguese record. What to expect from a guy with 20 years old that goes to the olympics and do his country record ?

How many people today goes to the olymopics and do country records during the heats? Simply the italien Francesco Arese

was better at that time.

I need also to remember you that in the same 1972 olympics and 1976 next ones - Mamede took part fo the 4X400m relay and they did 4X400m record also !

See the archives....(LOL)

One more detail. Then it took 13 years that´s when Memede did 27:13 10000m world record !

You may not see things innthe surface but deep.

But you are right. Mamede that´s weak phycjological and deals in troble with tension.

Do you know their best workouts ? One was one day after the 1984 Los Angeles olympics, when in that final he said to the coach with tears in their eyes "I´m no able to warmup, coach, My legs are heavy, my breath is hard". And the coach that knew all that reactions did cry to the track in hunger "Don´t think that you are in Los Angeles Olympics, Think that you are in our regular Lisbon team track just doing a routine workout" but he did reply "I didn´t sleep a single second past night".

When he give up earlier in that final, no one saw him no more in the rest of the day. Untill today nobody knows where he did sleep because it wasn´t in the Olimpic village in his room.

Well, next day after his apeearence in the protuguse crew, the coach put him in the village warmup track and he did a workout i doubt that at that time anyone in the world did it "400´s for 54-55sec - tons of sets". The other foreign coaches knowing that he did give up the day before they taugh "This Mamede, this guy, he is crazy !"

If he were able to run away from their phychologic problms, in that time - i have no doubt at all that he would be olympic champ, world champ, World records whatever.

he would be the first man in te world to do a sub 17:00 and sub 13:00. Personally i have no doubts of that, no doubts at all.

Wellcome to this thread !

mr. cabral, would it be possible to see the training logs of norpoth??? thank you very much...

xxx

You are right, but i got no time. I´m working in Alberto Chaiça schedule for Athens up to December 4 - when Americo Brito thats Chaiça head coach and will present that in a seminar in the Lisbon marathon. Also i´m busy helping my runners. But keep on going this intersting thread. I promise that i will post that - my original idea.

Ok, just to keep this going, do we know of anyone other than Norpoth that van Aaken coached whose primary event wasn't the marathon?

so to make that clear:Norpoth DID NOT follow van Aakens guidelines, yes he didnt do a lot of classic workouts on the track but his distance runs were at an intense pace, often doing hard fartleks.Norpoth said in an interview that only slow running will not get your body ready for world-class distance running.

Its the same with Lydiard and Peter Snell, oh i have to run 120mpw cause Lydiard said that and Lydiard must be right cause Peter Snell won 3 olmypics gold medals.

Peter Snell said in an interview that he did good mileage but not 100mpw, also some kiwis posted on this board that Snell did less volume than most other lydiard-boys, more like 80-90mpw.

So, where did you get that interview with Norpoth? Everything I've ever heard and read has van Aaken coaching Norpoth, so some documentation would be nice.

I interviewed Peter Snell three years ago. He was not one of Arthur's biggest mileage runners and told me he commonly was in the 70-80 range. But he also said that his best season came when he forced himself to do the 100 mile weeks.

Bump

Ne-now wrote:

so to make that clear:Norpoth DID NOT follow van Aakens guidelines, yes he didnt do a lot of classic workouts on the track but his distance runs were at an intense pace, often doing hard fartleks.Norpoth said in an interview that only slow running will not get your body ready for world-class distance running.

No one never told that Norport did just slow aerobic runs, neither the van Aaken method advises JUST slow runs. This is first common mistake about van Aaken method. Van Aaken simply advises a training BASED in aerobic runs, but also with tempos, and paces quite close or faster than race Pace - to a certain extend.

Look i´ve a copy of Norport´s training schedule diary hand-made by van Aaken - not all career but some typical weeks.

Yo can see 3-5X500m for 1:09-1:12 - and that´s not easy ro slow for a 3:44 runner !

So, what you mean (or Norport) by "intense pace" ?

Will you post this training info from Norpoth soon?

its from a book about the van-aaken method, interview with Norpoth:

Int.:Someone mentioned that you didnt train like his(van Aakens) method, is this true?

Norpoth:My training was based on distance runs through the forrest but these distance runs were not done at an easy/steady pace but very often included fast parts.

By just doing easy/steady distance running you cant reach your limits and sucess on the international scene.

Antonio,

If you haven't got time to post the log, maybe you could answer a few questions about it. If not, we'll all survive.

Did you post earlier that Norpoth never ran more than 75 or 80 minutes at a time? And I read an interview done with him in 1973 or 74 in which I believe he said he ran only one sessions a day. Is that true? I also recall that van Aaken often had people do a limited amount of fast running at the end of each run, such as 3-5x500. Did Norpoth do that sort of thing daily? And finally, about how many kilometers did he do in a week, month, or whatever? I know the distances van Aaken recommended people run were very large, but I've also gotten the sense that there could have been a difference between his theoretical recommendations and what his athletes actually did.

QUESTION:If you haven't got time to post the log, maybe you could answer a few questions about it. If not, we'll all survive.

Did you post earlier that Norpoth never ran more than 75 or 80 minutes at a time? And I read an interview done with him in 1973 or 74 in which I believe he said he ran only one sessions a day. Is that true?

ANSWER: all true, one single session a day, and 1 day rest every week (sometimes 2 recover days)

QUESTION: I also recall that van Aaken often had people do a limited amount of fast running at the end of each run, such as 3-5x500. Did Norpoth do that sort of thing daily? And finally, about how many kilometers did he do in a week, month, or whatever? I know the distances van Aaken recommended people run were very large, but I've also gotten the sense that there could have been a difference between his theoretical recommendations and what his athletes actually did.

ANSWER: This is a top issue. Van Aaken loves to do some intensity (or specifics) almost every day - of course that´s less everyday when you do specifics twice a week.

But you will see when i did post the schedule. I will try to work at my home and post the schedule tomorrow morning.

I need to copy that from the old paper format to a new editing format. Besides that´s in german, but i will try my best to the translation.

Ther´s no more excuse, so many time saying that i will post that (LOL) !

Hodgie-san wrote:

I've given up on Harald.

Finally, first Norporth schedule insight. Now, that´s 1962 year. Next I will intend post 2 more different periods, 1964 (before Toquio Olympics) and 1972 (before Munique Olympics).

Norport 9 summer weeks in 1962

Week 1

MON – warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

TUE – Travel to Hamburg. 10 kilos easy in Hamburg

WED – 1500m RACE. – 1st in 3:42.8; last 500m in 69.8, last 400 in 54.6

THU – Travel back. Rest day

FRI – warmup + 5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 4X500m/76sec,74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT - warmup+5X2000m/7: :30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 73sec/72sec/71 sec.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald

Week 2

MON – rest day

TUE – warmup + 15kilos run in Waldniel. 5X3kilos outdoor circuit laps in negative split.

WED – 15kilos easy in Waldniel circuit

THU – 10 kilos easy

FRI – 10kilos easy in Wald.

SAT – warmup + 3X10X200m (first set group average 36.5; second 34.5; third 33.5

fourth 31.7 Rec=200m jog. Last set in 25seconds.

SUN – 20kilos easy in Wald.

Week 3

MON – warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

TUE – Travel to Hamburg. 10 kilos easy in Hamburg

WED – 1500m RACE. – 1st in 3:42.8; last 500m in 69.8, last 400 in 54.6

THU – Travel back. Rest day

FRI – warmup + 5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 4X500m/76sec,74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT - warmup+5X2000m/7: :30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 73sec/72sec/71 sec.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald.

Week 4

MON – 10 kilos in Wald.

TUE – rest day

WED –rest day

THU – Travel back. Rest day

FRI – warmup + 5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 4X500m/76sec,74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT - warmup+5X2000m/7: :30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 73sec/72sec/71 sec.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald.

Week 5

MON – rest day

TUE – travel to Malmo. Rest day

WED – 10 kilos easy

THU – 10 kilos easy

FRI – 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

SAT – rest day

SUN - 1500m RACE. In Malmo – 1st in 3:42.0

Week 6

MON – Travel back from Malmo. Rest day

TUE –15kilos run in Waldniel, that´s 5X3kilos outdoor tempo as circuit laps in negative split.

WED – 8 kilos esy run in Wald.

THU – 12 kilos easy

FRI – 15 kilos easy run with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

SAT – rest day

Week 7

SUN – 15kilos run in Waldniel. 5X3kilos outdoor circuit laps in negative split.

MON – 12 kilos easy

TUE – 15kilos run in Waldniel. 5X3kilos outdoor circuit laps in negative split.

WED – 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

THU – rest day

FRI – rest day

SAT – 3000m RACE in 8:17.5

SUN – 10 kilos easy in Wald. with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

Week 8

MON – warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

TUE –10 kilos easy

WED – 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

THU – Rest day

FRI – warmup + 10X200m in 36sec REC=200m jog + 4X500m/76sec, 74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT – 15 kilos easy run in Wald.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald. with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

Week 9

MON - 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

TUE – 15 kilos easy

WED – rest day

THU – warmup + 9kilos negative split that´s an outdoor 3X3kilos circuit

FRI - warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

SAT – warmup + 4X5X200m in 34sec; 31sec 28 sec: 26 sec REC=200m jog + cooldown

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald. with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

Antonio,

I take back all of the terrible things I have been saying about you!

Is it OK with you if I post this on my own website?

Thanks

Bob

Hodgie-san

Since mr. Van Aaken write me that so many years ago, i think that´s authentic and no copyrights, because that were personal mail letters share.

That´s like "Carrying water by the river"...you see !

But after all what´s your site adress that with no e-mail adress that I can´t send a few of my own pics? ! L..O...L

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/