Mo is lucky that Kiprop has not had the initiative to move up to the 5k. Once Asbel does, Mo will have to run a lot faster than a 13:26 in order to win. If he Mo didn't, Kiprop would close in 50.00 to out lean him for the gold.
Mo is lucky that Kiprop has not had the initiative to move up to the 5k. Once Asbel does, Mo will have to run a lot faster than a 13:26 in order to win. If he Mo didn't, Kiprop would close in 50.00 to out lean him for the gold.
Cram should be rated much higher
As much talent as Ryun
Watch his WR runs in real races - he was the man!
Red Arrow wrote:ElG, Morceli, Lagat & Ngeny ...... More than likely on EPO given their peak performances were when there were no tests for EPO and they managed to run 2 secs faster than any generation before or after. And we know how thorough the Kenyans are at testing their own athletes
nonsense
bernie/hicham ran 3'27 in '04 well into modern epo-testing era
they stop epo & still run 3'27 ???
Peer Mediator wrote:Anyone can make an accusation about anything!
What was the nature of the accusation and where is the evidence from Atkinson?
Toxoplasmosis is a silly argument for an accusation of blood doping. For a start it would have been his own blood extracted in the first place, so how did it get contaminated?
no
get a clue
it doesn't have to be his own blood
in his frequent trips to europe for training/racing he coud just gone to a private clinic & got tranfused a coupla pints
much quicker & no hassle of storing own blood/etc
the fool obviously got a botched transfusion
Secondly, do you really think that the world's premier miler would have been involved in an outfit that didn't ensure all equipment was sterilised. And finally, if he had blood doped, then why did they (he and his coach) carry on for so long, none the wiser, after he started training and performing badly with side effects of tiredness, back pain and the like? A doper would have looked at doping as the cause straight away, and not kept putting his head on the chopping block against the likes of Scott, Elliott, Deleze & Cram
because the toxoplasmosis symptoms may have started weeks after a transfusion so he woudn't automatically associate it with the transfusions
get a clue about transfusions
immediate transfusion reactions were all that anyone cared about back then - usually mis-match of minor blood group sub-types or more seriously a volume overload causing pulmonary oedema
the risks of transmitting HIV/hepatitis C or even toxoplasmosis were little cared for back then
The British press find out everything, and as an ex MP and the chairman of 2012, drug allegations would be huge news. If there was a story the British press would have published it by now
i'm sure every little private medical clinic in switzerland/italy/france/etc have ALL been investigated by british press...
Red Arrow wrote:
And to answer the question of the thread, yes, I would consider Kiprop in the top 12 all time at 1500, but not in the top tier yet.
For me the top tier is reserved for those who have won an Olympic title and set a world record. World titles are great but those athletes competing before 1990 either never had them or only every 4 years, so it's hard for earlier guys to accumulate as many global titles as recent ones.
I'd put Elliott, Coe, Morceli & EL G in top tier; regardless of possible doping.
2nd tier I'd have Ryun, Snell, Walker, Ovett, Cram, Ngeny, Lagat, Kiprop.
3rd tier- Keino, Bayi, Aouita.
Not put in order of greatness, just in groups. Those in the 2nd and 3rd tiers have either a global title or world record and in a few cases both. The top tier is reserved for those with both a world record and an Olympic tittle.
utter nonsense
a young guy coud come along & remain unbeaten for years, win next 1/2 dozen big golds & each year for years run 3'26.25 - 3'26.75 but according to your nonsensical criteria woud never get into tier 1
with your ridiculous criteria, King Carl, despite 4 consecutive golds woud not get into tier 1 as he never broke the LJ WR !!!
80'2 Guy wrote:Cram should be rated much higher
As much talent as Ryun
Watch his WR runs in real races - he was the man!
no
breaking it down, you coud argue both had similar endurance ( although i'd still go with ryun as his endurance work was legendary )
the difference being cram likely had mid/low-46 speed to tack onto that endurance whereas ryun more like 45-flat
that difference is the whole key
they are not in same talent ballpark
Hardloper wrote:Kiprop has a lot more speed than someone like Silas Kiplagat. I'd like to see what Kiplagat could do for 3-5k.
coupla years ago silas ran a 3'30.4 in monaco with terrible pacing with the commentator, a former 1500wc/1500 + mile + 2k wr holder saying it was disgraceful & cost him coupla secs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzpUyr8JXEU( not this commentator )
his line of fit at that time ( with some input from canova his coach ) was possibly
48.5 / 1'44.5 ->
3'28.7
4'46.1
7'25.6
12'57.1
27'27.9
he'd be competitive at 3k
( but probably 6s behind mo )
but no threat at 5k - by that distance, the speed-decay curve wouda become too predominant, tailing off his time
Has anyone mentioned Vénuste Niyongabo yet?
Kiprop is da best wrote:Mo is lucky that Kiprop has not had the initiative to move up to the 5k. Once Asbel does, Mo will have to run a lot faster than a 13:26 in order to win. If he Mo didn't, Kiprop would close in 50.00 to out lean him for the gold.
asbel really has no chance at a 5k medal - they woud only have to run near 13-flat pace to the bell & he woud get dropped ( assuming current training for 1500 )
his 3'27.7 was worth about 3'27-flat as they set off way too quick at 52.95 !!! ( with asbel not far off ) & he did some wide running on bends & had to go from long way out - more than 500 out he's running wide on bend outside wabbit, getting no help
i'm sure this means his speed is also better than previous years & he wouda demolished that 1'43.1pb of his - that shouda been already been below 1'43 as he set off like he was running a fast 1500 rather than a 800 & was proverbial mile behind rudy at the bell
the line of fit that worked best for him last year was possibly
47.0 / 1'42.6 ->
3'27.00
4'45.9
7'26.3
13'03.4
27'54.3
he woud get dropped pretty quick in any 1/2-decent 5k, albeit if they did go at 13'30 pace his kick woud win
ventolin^3 wrote:
nonsense
bernie/hicham ran 3'27 in '04 well into modern epo-testing era
they stop epo & still run 3'27 ???
Are you saying you believe they were clean?
someone had to do it wrote:
fu.king imbecile
people like Canova and myself understand what is simple
and that is Farah has massive endurance to run 3'28 off of such limited speed
moron
he would have run 12'40 & 26'30 in evenly paced tt with wabbits on euro circuit
pea brained idiots like yourself do not comprehend this fact
learn
imbecile
Oh heres the kiddo again, you cannot in one post claim that Ryun would run 1.39 for in the next call someone a pea brain, imbecile or moron.
EPO testing was changed in 2006, when it became much more sophisticated and reliable.
Several false positives between 2000- 2006 and the fact that several athletes admitted taking EPO in this period whilst never failing a test for it, showed how unreliable the initial test was.
with your ridiculous criteria, King Carl, despite 4 consecutive golds woud not get into tier 1 as he never broke the LJ WR !!![/quote]
Moron. Carl Lewis held the sea level best for many years until Toxyo 91. Beamon's jump was aided by altitude.
Barakus Obama wrote:
someone had to do it wrote:fu.king imbecile
people like Canova and myself understand what is simple
and that is Farah has massive endurance to run 3'28 off of such limited speed
moron
he would have run 12'40 & 26'30 in evenly paced tt with wabbits on euro circuit
pea brained idiots like yourself do not comprehend this fact
learn
imbecile
Oh heres the kiddo again, you cannot in one post claim that Ryun would run 1.39 for in the next call someone a pea brain, imbecile or moron.
Exactly. I swear Vento's alter ego, "someone had to whatever", was actually arguing with another alter ego just to try and convince others that they are not in fact one and the same person! Lol.
Peer Mediator wrote:
Exactly. I swear Vento's alter ego, "someone had to whatever", was actually arguing with another alter ego just to try and convince others that they are not in fact one and the same person! Lol.
Idiot
the "alter-ego" was not me
I made that clear
look at the aforementioned post you refer to
you will see a . at the end of someone had to do it, i.e., "some had to do it."
because it was not me
moron
Red Arrow wrote:ElG, Morceli, Lagat & Ngeny ...... More than likely on EPO given their peak performances were when there were no tests for EPO and they managed to run 2 secs faster than any generation before or after. And we know how thorough the Kenyans are at testing their own athletes
ventolin^3 wrote:
nonsense
bernie/hicham ran 3'27 in '04 well into modern epo-testing era
they stop epo & still run 3'27 ???
It isn't a comprehensive record, but the USADA test history suggests that Lagat was not extensively tested until about 2006. (
http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history)
That's not to say that Lagat was or was not doping at any particular point in his career, but if he were, there is no chance that he would have been caught prior to the existence of the EPO test (~2000), virtually no chance of being caught prior to out of competition testing (after ~2004), very little chance of getting caught prior to biological passport tracking (after 2009), and there's still a non-trivial possibility that the current system can be beat.
[quote]ventolin^3 wrote:
asbel really has no chance at a 5k medal - they woud only have to run near 13-flat pace to the bell & he woud get dropped ( assuming current training for 1500 )
/quote]
So then Farah really has no chance at a 5k medal either.
Peer Mediator wrote:Moron. Carl Lewis held the sea level best for many years until Toxyo 91. Beamon's jump was aided by altitude.
idiot
iaaf listed the wr as
beamon 8.90m
where on earth do they have Carl on their outdoor wr list progression ???
ventolin^3 wrote:
Peer Mediator wrote:Moron. Carl Lewis held the sea level best for many years until Toxyo 91. Beamon's jump was aided by altitude.idiot
iaaf listed the wr as
beamon 8.90m
where on earth do they have Carl on their outdoor wr list progression ???
How about here:
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/tafn-lists?list_id=9&sex_id=M&yyear=2008oosk wrote:
The 1500. The point you're failing at trying to make is a dumb point. He didn't even attempt a medal in the 1500 or the half so you can't compare those to the 5 and 10. Also, he's come 2nd or worse plenty of times in the 5k and 10k. Hardloper, I thought you were a troll but not even a troll could be this dumb on purpose.
And WHY didn't he even attempt a medal in the 1500?
Maybe because it's not his best event?
So you think if he did, he'd have 3 gold medals in it?