Hypothetical race between Jim Ryun and Steve Ovett in their respective primes. Who would win?

ventolin^3 wrote:t&f news :

“after 220 yards of dawdling, a record seemed out of the question. However, after 440 yards, in which Ryun, in third, passed in 60.9 seconds, Kip Keino took the lead and ran the next lap in 56 seconds (the fastest second lap ever run at the time). Ryun, just behind, passed the 880 yard mark in 1:57.0. At 1320 yards the two were side by side in 2:55.0. Ryun pulled away to finish in 3:33.1 a record that stood for seven years. With a last 440 yards of 53.9 and a last 880 yards of 1:51.3, Cordner Nelson of Track and Field News called it “the mightiest finishing drive ever seen,” and said of Ryun’s performance, “This was most certainly his greatest race.” and his final 1,200 meters in an amazing 2:46.6

i used 2'47, which is ungenerous according to cordner

hicham's 3'26wr isn't available in it's entirety on web, but this is decent 2nd best - his 3'26.1 in '01

his 300m split is 40.6 from it, meaning he ran last 1200 in :

2'45.5

not bad at all for ryun when you consider hicham had consistent fast pace all the way around & ryun went ~ 56.1 / 58.0... from 1320y out on dirt

ventolin^3 wrote:not bad at all for ryun when you consider hicham had consistent fast pace all the way around & ryun went ~ 56.1 / 58.0... from 1320y out on dirt

typo

that last bit shoud be :

~ 56.1 / 58.0... for part of the last 1200m on dirt ( following keino from 440y point )

ventolin^3 wrote:

idiot

if you had a clue about medicine, toxoplasmosis woud be about 20th on list of differentials & no one except an inspired physician woud bother screening for it until about 5th visit in

Actually, neither one of you have a clue. A smart and experienced MD would be able to diagnose toxoplasmosis fairly quickly - certainly within 2-3 visits.

at maybe $75 for an IgM, i doubt they'd ask for it until much later than 2nd or 3rd visit

deanouk wrote:

It doesn't matter whether the fastest 1200m is at the beginning or end of a race.

Sure it does. Negative splits are easier to run at distances from 1500 on up than positive splits. Had cram run a 53 1st 400 in Oslo in 1985, he would not have run a 3:46. Had he and Aouita run 52xx 1st 400s in Nice in 1985 they would not have run 3:29s.

ventolin^3 wrote:

deanouk wrote:Coe went through 300m in LA in 43.5, so his last 1200m was 2:49.0, not 2:49.5!

nonsense

i've timed it 3 times from the vid & i get 43.0/43.1 each time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Sf4FrsGJs

that is last 1200 of 2'49.4 - 2'49.5

CRAP it is. The link you offer doesn't have a running clock on it so your hand job attempt is useless.

Look at this British version of the race which has the clock shown on screen.

Freeze the video 3:42 in and you'll see Coe is on the line at 43.5. When he crosses at the end the clock is on 3:32.4, so if anything it's probably nearer to 2:48.9. I'll err on side of caution and give it 2:49.0.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Ovett won Olympic Gold

Ryun failed to win Olympic Gold. Would you see Ovett getting tripped in a big race no he was a winner. If someone pushed him he would push them back twice as hard

Compared to us of course Ryun is a winner and we are all pathetic losers, but compare Ovett to Ryun and Ovett comes out on top

Ryun had a 50% hearing loss in one ear that caused his balance to be completely thrown off by someone just slightly pushing him. Ryun trying to push his way through would be a terrible idea.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Ovett Gold

Ryun Silver

Ovett won Gold when his closest competition ran like a complete idiot.

Ryun won Silver at over 7000 feet altitude when his best competition was an altitude native and had a teammate act as pacemaker to take it out in 56 seconds - effectively ending any hopes a sea level born runner might have had to win.

clearing the bs up wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Ovett won Olympic Gold

Ryun failed to win Olympic Gold. Would you see Ovett getting tripped in a big race no he was a winner. If someone pushed him he would push them back twice as hard

Compared to us of course Ryun is a winner and we are all pathetic losers, but compare Ovett to Ryun and Ovett comes out on top

Ryun had a 50% hearing loss in one ear that caused his balance to be completely thrown off by someone just slightly pushing him. Ryun trying to push his way through would be a terrible idea.

Oh well, if he was partly deaf then we should knock another couple of seconds off his 1500m pb shouldn't we? lol

Ryun ran in 3 Olympics and struck 1 silver.

Ovett not only proved himself on the greatest stage, winning Olympic gold, but also won many more golds at in other major champs/ events.

1975 ~ Europa Cup 800m gold;

1977 ~ Europa Cup 1500 gold;

1977 ~ World Cup 1500 gold (last 200m in 25.1, penultimate 100m in 12.0);

1978 ~ European 1500 Champs, gold;

1981 ~ World Cup 1500 gold;

1986 ~ Commonwealth 5000m gold.

I appreciate Ryun didn't have the opportunities to run in as many championship events, but his record on the big stage is relatively poor, for whatever reasons. Ovett was a born winner, and had to beat the likes of Coe, Walker, Scott, Wessinghage, Straub, etc to win these races.

Just jumping in on this conversation. Funny thing is, the one miler I have often thought would have been a good match for dad is Steve Ovett (even though Seb Coe's childhood hero was Jim Ryun). Both had that great blend of strength and speed. I have often thought it interesting that Ovett never ran faster than his 1:44 in 1978, though. For what it's worth, if the hypothetical race winds up from a long way out, dad 7 or 8 times out of 10. If it is a pure kickers race from 200-300m out, 50/50 at best. Both of them could explode off of pace. Ovett's 1977 World Cup race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W7GogWlv7Q) versus Jim Ryun's sub-50 last lap in Dusseldorf (3:38 1500m).

drewr wrote:

Just jumping in on this conversation. Funny thing is, the one miler I have often thought would have been a good match for dad is Steve Ovett (even though Seb Coe's childhood hero was Jim Ryun). Both had that great blend of strength and speed. I have often thought it interesting that Ovett never ran faster than his 1:44 in 1978, though. For what it's worth, if the hypothetical race winds up from a long way out, dad 7 or 8 times out of 10. If it is a pure kickers race from 200-300m out, 50/50 at best. Both of them could explode off of pace. Ovett's 1977 World Cup race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W7GogWlv7Q) versus Jim Ryun's sub-50 last lap in Dusseldorf (3:38 1500m).

Sorry it's taken 6 years for a LetsRun poster to reply to you Drew, but yeah, I remarked here recently the parallels between your father's Dusseldorf run in 1967, and Ovett's WC victory almost exactly 10 years later on (I assume) the very same track. Both finished with a burst of pace that left commentators and spectators open mouthed. However, I've read that Ovett's inspiration as a young athlete was also Jim Ryun? I like to think he was almost paying homage to his hero in the 77 World Cup run.

If Ryun ran 3:33.1 with an opening 300 in 46.5, then he ran his last 1200m in 2:46.6, which is slightly superior by himself with no perfect conditions, no pacer something like the last 300, whereas Manangoi had the pacer to the last 100, and no Mondo track to Manangoi's 3:33.62 World Champ's win. Cheruiyot, who paced Manangoi until the end, ran 3:33.99. The 1st lap was in 1:01.63, and the first 300m appeared to be 46 flat, maybe a couple tenths slower at most, with a slightly slower 2:47.6 and 2:48 close. Weather in London for the 1500m final was an excellent 22 degrees Celsius and 35% humidity!Ryun ran 2:46.6 in weather in the mid 90s in the L.A. smog. Why would anyone armed with this information not think that Ryun was equal or superior to these two Kenyan 3:28 guys, not even accounting for track surface? And with cinders vs. London mondo, you have to say that Ryun was at least at El G's level, which is to say about two seconds better shape than Manangoi showed.The WC race from a distance but with them crossing at 300m unlike other videos I can find.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWktrgsqqQEBelow is the weather for the London race, plus splits at 400/800/1200https://media.aws.iaaf.org/competitiondocuments/pdf/5151/AT-1500-M-f--1--.RS5.pdf?v=-1786034814RE: Asking for Jim Ryun's 300m Split in his 3'33.1 WR 4/2/2007 3:20PM - in reply to mr. common senseShould have written sooner Reply Return to Index Report PostLast 1200 meters 2:46.6.Last 800 meters 1:51.3Last 400 meters 53.5First 300 in 46.5 - very slow. Conditions hot - 97 degree air temperature and 60's Los Angeles smog. Awful to run in. Track chewed up from 2 days of competition. Ryun was a top talent who came along before before proper training methods had been solidified. People blame Timmons for not training him correctly, but the fact is that not too many people knew what to do back then. For what it's worth, Lydiard said back in 2000 that if he'd have coached Ryun, Ryun would still have the 1500 and mile records, so great was his talent. I don't know about that, but some of what Ryun did always made me believe he could have run 3:46 in the mile on dirt 40 years ago.

Clearly Calculo.

Ryun's 3:33.1 was not on his own, he had Keino drafting him from 300m to 1200m. Therefore you can't compare it with Cheruiyot's run in London, as he had no drafting whatsoever.

The temp in LA for Ryun was not 97F, and if you look up the max temp that day it will be nowhere near.

Pathe News said it was in the 80's on the track. This would have no detrimental affect on someone from Kansas running for 3 and a half minutes.

T&FN said at the time of their report on the meet in LA, that the track 'had been freshly laid and looked fast' just before Ryun's race.

Finally, Ryun's was a one off race not his 3rd in as many days in a championship environment. Very different conditions.

Of course Ryun was an incredible talent, one of the best ever, and would have been capable of faster on synthetic tracks and faster still on today's mondo tracks, but enough with the hyperbole about temperature and chewed up tracks and solo runs.

Ryun had plenty of drafting in that race, ran in reasonable temp and on a good quality, newly laid cinder track. It was also a one off race not at the end of 3 races in 3 days in a championship.

Credit Limit wrote:

The temp in LA for Ryun was not 97F, and if you look up the max temp that day it will be nowhere near.

Pathe News said it was in the 80's on the track. This would have no detrimental affect on someone from Kansas running for 3 and a half minutes.

Correct.

Highest recorded temp in LA on July 8th 1967 was 71F! according to one site, and 22C (71.6F) according to another. That's almost identical to the temp in London for the World 1500m.

So we have 2 independent US websites offering historical data, that are identical. No way was Ryun running in 97F. If he or someone claimed to see it on a thermometer, then it was wrong or they couldn't read it properly. Or it had been placed directly in a focused area of sunlight.

The official temperature was 71F, perfect conditions for running a mile.

The idea of a 1v1 race is intriguing. Any links/videos of this being done?

eqwrpoiqwj wrote:Ryun ran 2:46.6 in weather in the mid 90s in the L.A. smog.

Why would anyone armed with this information not think that Ryun was equal or superior to these two Kenyan 3:28 guys, not even accounting for track surface?

quite honestly, the monaco race was rubbish

far too quick opener at 53-high, with elites thru in ~ 54-flat, then elites went thru in about 1'51-high, so splits of ~ 54.0/57-high, which is poor

then the pacer ran away from elites, offering no drafting & quit by ~ 500 out, no drafting for certainly Timmy

the clocking at bell was rubbish 2'34.39 which is 3'30.53 pace !!!

poor, poor race & to run 3'28 in it was fantastic

even pace thruout & pacing to bell in expected 2'32.5 - 2'33.0, not rubbish nearly 2s slower, considering hicham got 2'32.8 & maree in his 3'29.77 got 2'33-low !!!, & both these guys shouda gone 3'27 at very very worst & more likely 3'26+

i suggest you do your Ryun comparison based on 2 kenyans who were in more like 3'26+ shape in monaco...

ventolin^3 wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:t&f news :

i used 2'47, which is ungenerous according to cordner

hicham's 3'26wr isn't available in it's entirety on web, but this is decent 2nd best - his 3'26.1 in '01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQjjLgT-WHA

his 300m split is 40.6 from it, meaning he ran last 1200 in :

2'45.5

not bad at all for ryun when you consider hicham had consistent fast pace all the way around & ryun went ~ 56.1 / 58.0... from 1320y out on dirt

The race is over 1500m not 1320y which suits Ryun over El G because Ryan was a better 800m runner

Ryun

Are you replying to yourself?