The fact that most youngster didn't know about ("take this supplement - it is good for you") is perhaps the most upsetting thing about it.
The jury is out.
The fact that most youngster didn't know about ("take this supplement - it is good for you") is perhaps the most upsetting thing about it.
The jury is out.
26mi235 wrote:
Not real strong logical inference. A single case of the German doctors (plural) giving drugs (not necessarily PEDs) to an athlete that was 12 suddenly is turned into a general case that there was systematic PEDs use by children, the oldest of which was 12. You Have to do better than this. Maybe you can re-write the material to make it more compelling but this is so weak as to be just short of embarrassing.
Not real strongly connected to reality you are.
Klaas Lok, I think you said it best when you said, "fact is that he failed two drug tests."
Yes, that makes him a drug cheat, as you said "fact is, the drug was in his body."
Vroemen is as criminal as the Tour de France cyclists.
China Star wrote:
Klaas Lok, I think you said it best when you said, "fact is that he failed two drug tests."
He didn't say that, he quoted someone else saying it and then argued against it, read properly before replying.
Same for those who are riling against the poster who didn't accept the explanation that 12 year-olds were being doped in East Germany. They never expressed an opinion about whether it happened or not, they were just saying that the evidence presented by the previous poster wasn't convincing.
I offer not opinion as to whether I agree with him, but at least Klaas Lok has at least presented a coherent argument.
Klaas, believe me, I am very familiar with the drug testing procedure. I was referring to the "warning" he received previously. So by definition he has now failed TWICE.
Fill us in with some details...
Klaas Lok, former Dutch champ wrote:
...Fact is, that metandienone was found in his system, but this does not prove he is a drug cheat...
Yes, actually, it does.
If you had seen the documentary, you'd have heard WHY they were giving them birth control. It was because they were afraid of the (as of yet) unknown side-effects of a pregnancy while on the PEDs (was it Oral Turinabol?) they were feeding them.
26mi235 wrote:
a dude wrote:Recently, there was a german documentary on TV about the systematic state-sponsored doping program in former east Gemany (DDR). Doping was administered to teenagers (for example to girls to control their period once they reach puberty) and younger (one girl was given pills at age - guess - yes, 12). The systematic doping administered by and developed by their chemist turns out to be most cynical in modern sports. The long term side effects are enormous.
One women even went through a gender operation.
So German doctors have been giving dope to children at age 12.
The fact is that the A and B samples are positive. Many
people try to find alternative explanations. Based on the current information, it is difficult to believe in these theories. If we are going to do so, you guys need to find
supplements which are contaminated with the banned substances that can be traced in samples after consumption.
I am not saying it couldn't happen, but _you_ have to prove
that this is like scenario. Otherwise it is pure unfounded speculation.
Groetjes,
de noor
Not real strong logical inference. A single case of the German doctors (plural) giving drugs (not necessarily PEDs) to an athlete that was 12 suddenly is turned into a general case that there was systematic PEDs use by children, the oldest of which was 12. You Have to do better than this. Maybe you can re-write the material to make it more compelling but this is so weak as to be just short of embarrassing.
New fuel to the discussion:
http://www.themazecorporation.net/lv/?p=9984
"They recommended me to use a drip with natriumchloride. Luckily I carried one with me."
Delphore wrote:
New fuel to the discussion:
http://www.themazecorporation.net/lv/?p=9984"They recommended me to use a drip with natriumchloride. Luckily I carried one with me."
how lucky for him
:o)
And 'they' are;
Bernard Nikkels; doctor and advisor to top-athletes. This is someone who openly promotes the use of EPO for athletes to prevent damage being done to their bodies in heavy racing and
Helmut Stechemesser; no need to explain I guess...
'they' are most definately not; Peter Vergouwen, teamdoctor of the Dutch Team who refused to prescribe the drip Vroemen took...after which he called his 'advisors'.
he had food poisoning - if he was just getting moderate diarrhoea, but no vomiting, then no drip required & rehydration solution like rehidrat is perfectly adequate
however, if diarrhoea is severe with clinical dehydration ( sunken eyes, dry tongue, loss of skin turgor, etc ) or moderate diarrhoea with vomiting, or just severe vomiting & therefore oral fluid replacements are not being kept down, then a drip is required
this is not brain-surgery, it's basic med student fluid replacement 101
it's a no brainer for any doc to have decided on a drip just over the phone if you ask the right questions
if his docs decided he needed a drip, there is very little wrong with that from clinical point of view
as for "natriumchloride" that is just NaCl or saline/salt - standard solution needed to replace elecrtrolytes lost thru diarrhoea/vomiting - it's nothing magical & every team shoud carry some bags around
Vroemen is your classic, dirty athlete.
China Star wrote:
Vroemen is your classic, dirty athlete.
That was your classic, worthless letsrun post.
I am saying that your exposition is faulty; it needs to be strengthened. If you were in a rhetoric contest you would lose whichever side of an argument you were on. You stringing together of items in your argument did not make a logical conclusion even if the position that you are for is 'true'.
a dude wrote:
Clown. There was a systematic doping program in DDR.
Many athletes have come forward and also a few doctors.
Are you in denial?
ikvam wrote:
And 'they' are;
Bernard Nikkels; doctor and advisor to top-athletes. This is someone who openly promotes the use of EPO for athletes to prevent damage being done to their bodies in heavy racing and
Helmut Stechemesser; no need to explain I guess...
'they' are most definately not; Peter Vergouwen, teamdoctor of the Dutch Team who refused to prescribe the drip Vroemen took...after which he called his 'advisors'.
wonder what else they are hiding.. and Vroemen is the excuse king
Vroemen now states that he made an agreement with Rien Van Haperen and Peter Verlooy of the federation in Götheborg. ‘They told me not to talk about the incident. But now that they decide to talk, I can do the same.’ Vroemen acknowledges that he performed an illegal action but talks about it as if it were a small negligence. ‘At least I didn’t use any illegal substance,’ says Vroemen who reminds us that during the 2004 Olympics the use of a glucose drip was still allowed.
The reason that the federation has not reported this before is the agreement they had with Simon Vroemen that he would put an end to his carreer after Götheborg. So he did. Until a few months ago Vroemen made a remarkable come-back by qualifying for the Olympics in a race in Cottbus on June 11th. A few days later he announced himself that he had tested positive for metandienon. Earlier this week Simon Vroemen was already suspended for the positive dopingtest from a few weeks ago.
Vroemen has admitted his guilt. Eat that, letsrun defenders...
controlled bleeding wrote:
This is the first time I've heard the "contaminated meat" arguement, has this ever been considered a possibility in the past?
It been used at least twice before, perhaps several times -- all without success. I vaguely recall that one would have to eat something like half a cow a day for any contaminated meat (even highly contaminated) to cause in a positive test.
Delphore wrote:
"They recommended me to use a drip with natriumchloride. Luckily I carried one with me."
So, Simon, you got a little tummy ache, and you reached into your back pocket and pulled out an intravenous drip device. How conveeeeeenient!
Now, who could have put that little old intravenous drip device in your back pocket. Hmmm . . . let's see . . . who could it possibly be . . . maybe it was . . . Satan!
"He gains two meters on each hurdle."
Yeah, the extra leg strength he gains from the steroids would conntribute to that. The extra power in his hurdling technique is drug aided. Plus, he can recover quicker after hard sessions and hurdle drills because of the drugs. Off all the distance events, a steepler would benifit the most from steroids.