There is a common theme/question in all of these stories: where are the parents? I really hope that the Armentrout kid got the help he needed - I honestly do - but it seems very odd to me that he is clearly spiraling out of control and expected his sports coach to be the one to take care of all of his problems. Could he not call his parents? Go see a school-provided MH counselor?
And not to sound mean, but he only ran for one year according to the article. Why is he leading the charge here in 2024? The whole thing seems very odd. Keep in mind I have no knowledge of anything outside of this article, so maybe she was truly terrible, but nothing in the article leads me to believe that she is the problem. When you make really bad life choices, it can be tempting to blame it all on someone else. But at the end of the day, I think these kids will realize that maybe they were the ones in the wrong.
How do XC/Track coaches even coach anymore? You could be the best coach in the world and one troubled kid could bring you down with a snarky email to the local paper. Why don't we see these expose articles written about football coaches? Do you think Kirby Smart and Deon Sanders are scared to discipline their athletes? I want to be wrong. Please tell me how I am wrong because this is just depressing me.
There is a common theme/question in all of these stories: where are the parents? I really hope that the Armentrout kid got the help he needed - I honestly do - but it seems very odd to me that he is clearly spiraling out of control and expected his sports coach to be the one to take care of all of his problems. Could he not call his parents? Go see a school-provided MH counselor?
And not to sound mean, but he only ran for one year according to the article. Why is he leading the charge here in 2024? The whole thing seems very odd. Keep in mind I have no knowledge of anything outside of this article, so maybe she was truly terrible, but nothing in the article leads me to believe that she is the problem. When you make really bad life choices, it can be tempting to blame it all on someone else. But at the end of the day, I think these kids will realize that maybe they were the ones in the wrong.
How do XC/Track coaches even coach anymore? You could be the best coach in the world and one troubled kid could bring you down with a snarky email to the local paper. Why don't we see these expose articles written about football coaches? Do you think Kirby Smart and Deon Sanders are scared to discipline their athletes? I want to be wrong. Please tell me how I am wrong because this is just depressing me.
It does seem as though we've lost our nerve a bit around the issue of suicide or, in this case thankfully, merely its ideation. If someone is feeling suicidal, they can do no wrong and it is a fraught situation for everyone else because one "wrong" statement or action makes them out to be the worst person in the world. It's possible the coach could have done more, but a coach is not necessarily trained in this kind of thing and the best action would be to direct the athlete to someone who is. You're quite right, the athlete was in such a serious and precarious spot that he should have known there were better avenues to address what was going on.
There's a related phenomenon in the other direction, where if someone goes through with it, we are expected NOT to talk about it or even pretend it wasn't actually suicide. This latter situation occurred with another runner this year, one state over from where Duke is. Obvious and confirmed suicide got retconned as an accident because people couldn't handle the situation maturely.
We've got to find a position where we take suicide seriously, and do not run from it or get mad at others for not knowing the perfect solution personally. People not trained in prevention should be allowed to refer the person to someone who is trained, and we shouldn't be afraid to talk about the issue more broadly. The current state of affairs serves nobody.
Is it possible to be a good college coach --- a job where personal relationships are more important than technical knowledge --- and also be disliked by the vast majority of your team?
The fact that the team had a raging party in the middle of the season and defend it as “tradition” is so Duke mediocrity. Cross country kids are so weak.
Imagine if our sport was covered like football and basketball with beat writers and folks following everything. Headline like top recruit not at practice due to being too drunk.
Or the headline “girl sent to hospital after party at Quarterback/ team captains house”
There would be serious consequences!!!
Baker Mayfield was arrested for drinking related violations twice in college. No suspension.
Brett Favre was visibly hungover for his first college start, and in his autobiography, he stated that he knew the coach was aware. No consequences.
Jake Fromm (Georgia), Josh Allen both had racist statements leaked. No consequences.
Ray Lewis literally pled guilty for involvement in a murder trial where anyone with a brain could figure out his friends were taking the fall for him. No consequences.
Rashee Rice (Chiefs) caused a six car pile up while racing with a friend going 120 down a highway, was arrested with like eight charges. He's starting on my fanasty team.
Joe Mixon is on camera punching the living sh*t out of a woman and was arrested for pointing a gun at her. Also on my fanasty team
I don't know what you think you mean by "there would be consequences", but you're very wrong. In fact, cross country is probably the only sport where the athletes would recieve punishment for anything of this sort.
This post was edited 23 seconds after it was posted.
There is a common theme/question in all of these stories: where are the parents? I really hope that the Armentrout kid got the help he needed - I honestly do - but it seems very odd to me that he is clearly spiraling out of control and expected his sports coach to be the one to take care of all of his problems. Could he not call his parents? Go see a school-provided MH counselor?
And not to sound mean, but he only ran for one year according to the article. Why is he leading the charge here in 2024? The whole thing seems very odd. Keep in mind I have no knowledge of anything outside of this article, so maybe she was truly terrible, but nothing in the article leads me to believe that she is the problem. When you make really bad life choices, it can be tempting to blame it all on someone else. But at the end of the day, I think these kids will realize that maybe they were the ones in the wrong.
How do XC/Track coaches even coach anymore? You could be the best coach in the world and one troubled kid could bring you down with a snarky email to the local paper. Why don't we see these expose articles written about football coaches? Do you think Kirby Smart and Deon Sanders are scared to discipline their athletes? I want to be wrong. Please tell me how I am wrong because this is just depressing me.
It does seem as though we've lost our nerve a bit around the issue of suicide or, in this case thankfully, merely its ideation. If someone is feeling suicidal, they can do no wrong and it is a fraught situation for everyone else because one "wrong" statement or action makes them out to be the worst person in the world. It's possible the coach could have done more, but a coach is not necessarily trained in this kind of thing and the best action would be to direct the athlete to someone who is. You're quite right, the athlete was in such a serious and precarious spot that he should have known there were better avenues to address what was going on.
There's a related phenomenon in the other direction, where if someone goes through with it, we are expected NOT to talk about it or even pretend it wasn't actually suicide. This latter situation occurred with another runner this year, one state over from where Duke is. Obvious and confirmed suicide got retconned as an accident because people couldn't handle the situation maturely.
We've got to find a position where we take suicide seriously, and do not run from it or get mad at others for not knowing the perfect solution personally. People not trained in prevention should be allowed to refer the person to someone who is trained, and we shouldn't be afraid to talk about the issue more broadly. The current state of affairs serves nobody.
When I read the article, the kid seemed to lose himself a little when he got sick and he felt the coaches and staff turned away from him, and he clearly expressed that he was experiencing a change in his goals which was confusing and he needed guidance and support..from his coaches but he didn't receive it and the lack of those things led to his issues.
This is actually an incredibly common experience within college athletics and it's well documented in injury/illness literature. If coaches got more professional development, they'd recognize it as common and address it much better and more head on.
Sitting down with this kid and actually simply having a conversation like, "we know you have bronchitis. How are you feeling and how do you want to look at training and racing realistically right now, together..and keep evaluating?" "As you rest, how will you stay connected with the team..and use the time to your advantage?"
Coaches act like they are all in: goals progression, social support when the kid is healthy, but then disappear when the kid is sick or injured. THATS what the kid was bringing up.
I think any coach reading this thread or that article is walking away further terrified. This job already brings baggage but with the culture of 'student athlete well-being' you better be sure the kids on the team like you and don't turn on you. It only takes 1-2 disgruntled kids to cause a scene and ruin your career. I'm sure Reckert has her faults but anyone involved in the NCAA knows there are so many coaches saying and doing far more egregious things.
Good points above. I am not a coach and have never been a coach, but I am a former D1 runner. From my experience, there are 100% problem athletes who can bring down a coach and/or program if given too much power. I was an athlete in the 90s so it was less likely to happen in those days, but now it just seems so dangerous.
To hmmmmm.... above, you are not wrong at all, but what you describe is a no-nuance scenario. What if the kid with bronchitis is sick because he refuses to abide by your no partying rule and is constantly urging teammates to go out and get drunk with him? And what if he bags workouts and constantly second guesses your training? Not all athletes are angels and sometimes they are just going scorched earth. I had one or two on my team and we dealt with them at the athlete-to-athlete level, but that was just my experience.
The fact that the team had a raging party in the middle of the season and defend it as “tradition” is so Duke mediocrity. Cross country kids are so weak.
Imagine if our sport was covered like football and basketball with beat writers and folks following everything. Headline like top recruit not at practice due to being too drunk.
Or the headline “girl sent to hospital after party at Quarterback/ team captains house”
There would be serious consequences!!!
Baker Mayfield was arrested for drinking related violations twice in college. No suspension.
Brett Favre was visibly hungover for his first college start, and in his autobiography, he stated that he knew the coach was aware. No consequences.
Jake Fromm (Georgia), Josh Allen both had racist statements leaked. No consequences.
Ray Lewis literally pled guilty for involvement in a murder trial where anyone with a brain could figure out his friends were taking the fall for him. No consequences.
Rashee Rice (Chiefs) caused a six car pile up while racing with a friend going 120 down a highway, was arrested with like eight charges. He's starting on my fanasty team.
Joe Mixon is on camera punching the living sh*t out of a woman and was arrested for pointing a gun at her. Also on my fanasty team
I don't know what you think you mean by "there would be consequences", but you're very wrong. In fact, cross country is probably the only sport where the athletes would recieve punishment for anything of this sort.
Your examples are of the most talented athletes in the biggest sports. Jobs, money, wins, are all on the line.
They absolutely should have been punished for their actions, but you should also be able to understand the logic of why they might not have been, given their status and impact. Not saying it is right, but there are understandable reasons for how they may have been treated. You can also find many examples of big name talent that have been punished severely for similar actions. You can't chery pick.
I also don't get the logic of "because others have made bad decisions without consequence, all should be allowed to make bad decisions without consequence:" It's pretty twisted logic that is not in the best interest of individuals, programs or society as a whole.
That being said, those examples bear no resemblance to a group of average guys on a mediocre college cross country team.
Your examples are of the most talented athletes in the biggest sports. Jobs, money, wins, are all on the line.
They absolutely should have been punished for their actions, but you should also be able to understand the logic of why they might not have been, given their status and impact. Not saying it is right, but there are understandable reasons for how they may have been treated. You can also find many examples of big name talent that have been punished severely for similar actions. You can't chery pick.
I also don't get the logic of "because others have made bad decisions without consequence, all should be allowed to make bad decisions without consequence:" It's pretty twisted logic that is not in the best interest of individuals, programs or society as a whole.
That being said, those examples bear no resemblance to a group of average guys on a mediocre college cross country team.
Wouldn't exactly call Rashee Rice or Jake Fromm the most talented athletes in sports but okay.
Now, the logic that I don't understand is that you are claiming that "We should punish the mediocre for things that we let the elite get away with".
That is very, very, very, dangerous indeed. Talk about twisted logic. A persons athletic ability should not absolve them from the same punishment a lesser athlete would recieve.
Lastly, NCAA Nationals is these cross country runners version of the CFP. Taking away their ability to reach their dreams because of a party where SOMEONE ELSE made a bad decision is stupid. These captains didn't pry the kid's mouth open and force medicine in. College students are adults, they should be responsible for themselves.
A week suspension would have been understandable. Maybe even a fine, or a suspension for a non-essential meet for National qualifying. "But nuttycombe just happened to be the next meet" is also twisted logic. If the Giants are 9-6 and Daniel Jones kills 8 people on national television two days before, he's playing in that game to make the playoffs. And that's the definition of a mediocre player on a mediocre team.
Your examples are of the most talented athletes in the biggest sports. Jobs, money, wins, are all on the line.
They absolutely should have been punished for their actions, but you should also be able to understand the logic of why they might not have been, given their status and impact. Not saying it is right, but there are understandable reasons for how they may have been treated. You can also find many examples of big name talent that have been punished severely for similar actions. You can't chery pick.
I also don't get the logic of "because others have made bad decisions without consequence, all should be allowed to make bad decisions without consequence:" It's pretty twisted logic that is not in the best interest of individuals, programs or society as a whole.
That being said, those examples bear no resemblance to a group of average guys on a mediocre college cross country team.
Wouldn't exactly call Rashee Rice or Jake Fromm the most talented athletes in sports but okay.
Now, the logic that I don't understand is that you are claiming that "We should punish the mediocre for things that we let the elite get away with".
That is very, very, very, dangerous indeed. Talk about twisted logic. A persons athletic ability should not absolve them from the same punishment a lesser athlete would recieve.
Lastly, NCAA Nationals is these cross country runners version of the CFP. Taking away their ability to reach their dreams because of a party where SOMEONE ELSE made a bad decision is stupid. These captains didn't pry the kid's mouth open and force medicine in. College students are adults, they should be responsible for themselves.
A week suspension would have been understandable. Maybe even a fine, or a suspension for a non-essential meet for National qualifying. "But nuttycombe just happened to be the next meet" is also twisted logic. If the Giants are 9-6 and Daniel Jones kills 8 people on national television two days before, he's playing in that game to make the playoffs. And that's the definition of a mediocre player on a mediocre team.
I clearly said that they should all be punished for such violations, regardless of status, importance, etc. The level of punishment for any of them is not for me to decide.
If the Giants are 9-6 and Daniel Jones kills 8 people on national television two days before, he's playing in that game to make the playoffs. And that's the definition of a mediocre player on a mediocre team.
So funny to me that these Duke boys started this thread to tarnish their former coach for demanding they take their sport seriously...and instead they seem to have tarnished their own reputations. Sad.
If I was the next coach at Duke and came across this thread I'd clean the roster and start over immediately. I ran for a below average D1 school and even we took it way more seriously than these clowns - and not one of us had more than a partial scholarship.
It does seem as though we've lost our nerve a bit around the issue of suicide or, in this case thankfully, merely its ideation. If someone is feeling suicidal, they can do no wrong and it is a fraught situation for everyone else because one "wrong" statement or action makes them out to be the worst person in the world. It's possible the coach could have done more, but a coach is not necessarily trained in this kind of thing and the best action would be to direct the athlete to someone who is. You're quite right, the athlete was in such a serious and precarious spot that he should have known there were better avenues to address what was going on.
There's a related phenomenon in the other direction, where if someone goes through with it, we are expected NOT to talk about it or even pretend it wasn't actually suicide. This latter situation occurred with another runner this year, one state over from where Duke is. Obvious and confirmed suicide got retconned as an accident because people couldn't handle the situation maturely.
We've got to find a position where we take suicide seriously, and do not run from it or get mad at others for not knowing the perfect solution personally. People not trained in prevention should be allowed to refer the person to someone who is trained, and we shouldn't be afraid to talk about the issue more broadly. The current state of affairs serves nobody.
When I read the article, the kid seemed to lose himself a little when he got sick and he felt the coaches and staff turned away from him, and he clearly expressed that he was experiencing a change in his goals which was confusing and he needed guidance and support..from his coaches but he didn't receive it and the lack of those things led to his issues.
This is actually an incredibly common experience within college athletics and it's well documented in injury/illness literature. If coaches got more professional development, they'd recognize it as common and address it much better and more head on.
Sitting down with this kid and actually simply having a conversation like, "we know you have bronchitis. How are you feeling and how do you want to look at training and racing realistically right now, together..and keep evaluating?" "As you rest, how will you stay connected with the team..and use the time to your advantage?"
Coaches act like they are all in: goals progression, social support when the kid is healthy, but then disappear when the kid is sick or injured. THATS what the kid was bringing up.
WTF kinda after school special BS is this? You think a college coach has the time to deal with that?
So funny to me that these Duke boys started this thread to tarnish their former coach for demanding they take their sport seriously...and instead they seem to have tarnished their own reputations. Sad.
Whoever the new coach is would be best served to clean house. Attitudes like the ones displayed on this Duke team seem to fester and grow like a cancer. Cut out the diseased tissue before it spreads.
WTF kinda after school special BS is this? You think a college coach has the time to deal with that?
Dude, the explicit mission of the NCAA is to promote "lifelong well-being" for all student-athletes.
A college lifestyle factors in to a student-athlete's performance and mental health. Refusing or failing to acknowledge that is not conducive to their well-being.
Believe it or not, but part of being a coach is adjusting to the different needs of all your athletes. Since most athletes on any given team are not going to be conference point scorers, you need to know how to cater to the needs of students whose athletic careers are only a supplement to their academic goals.
WTF kinda after school special BS is this? You think a college coach has the time to deal with that?
Dude, the explicit mission of the NCAA is to promote "lifelong well-being" for all student-athletes.
A college lifestyle factors in to a student-athlete's performance and mental health. Refusing or failing to acknowledge that is not conducive to their well-being.
Believe it or not, but part of being a coach is adjusting to the different needs of all your athletes. Since most athletes on any given team are not going to be conference point scorers, you need to know how to cater to the needs of students whose athletic careers are only a supplement to their academic goals.
I believe Armentrout was a walk-on member of the team. Could that have been a reason that the coach may not have gone above and beyond to help?
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