Thanks for your counterargument. My point is that wheelchair competitors generally don't demand to compete directly against the runners. Otherwise, they would mostly dominate both male and female runners in distances 800m to marathon.
Can you image wheelchair athletes collecting all the prize money and accolades at every competition? It'll be a cold day in hell before that ever happens. Yet, in the name of so-called fairness, real women (dare I say) are supposed to accept trans women dominating women's sports. I will always defend fairness in sports. And that's not fair.
MacFaden and her mother sued the school district because she had no one to compete against in HS. And she agreed to the condition that she could not score points for her team. Then she went to U of I, where she had other people to train with and compete against. Do you think she should not have been allowed to do what she did in HS?
Trans only category might work for college and above. That may not be practical at HS level. In all likelihood, it will be a solo time trial like MacFaden did before her lawsuit. That may still be the best solution. But if a wheelchair athlete could race as an exhibition participant, why can't a trans athlete do the same?
Some people may say it's not - for various political and social reasons - but it fits the criteria of a disorder. If someone is willing to kill themselves over gender dysphoria it's a mental disorder. It's really not more complicated than that.
American Psychological Association wrote:
The American Psychiatric Association kept this question in mind while preparing their latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5). Definitions of mental disorders in the DSM-5 consider these 5 factors:
A behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual Reflects an underlying psychobiological dysfunction The consequences of which are clinically significant distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning)
It doesn't say gender incongruence itself is mental disorder. It says stress that comes from gender incongruence is mental disorder. In other words, if you identify as female and you are treated as male, it causes excessive mental stress. That's where the disorder exists, and not the incongruence itself. If a person successfully transitions to the opposite gender, then that person no longer feels excessive stress, and therefore does not suffer from any disorder.
Trans"women" are FORCING their mental disorder (according the authoritative medical text of the land) upon a vast number of female athletes, IN PUBLIC, and without those females consent.
Gender incongruence is NOT mental disorder. I don't know what "authoritative medical text" you are talking about, but it is outdated.
You lost all credibility by using WHO as a source. The DSM 5 was the standard until the activist crowd cudgeled the powers that be into changing the DSM 6 to reflect fantasy as "fact." Good try though...
"It doesn't say gender incongruence itself is mental disorder."
I can't say what the DSM 5 says about that, but it DOES say that gender dysphoria is indeed a mental disorder. Just because some extremists strong armed the editors of the new edition doesn't magically mean it's not a disorder anymore, sorry charlie.
You lost all credibility by using WHO as a source. The DSM 5 was the standard until the activist crowd cudgeled the powers that be into changing the DSM 6 to reflect fantasy as "fact." Good try though...
What is “DSM 6”? Glad to hear you are happy with DSM-…
"It doesn't say gender incongruence itself is mental disorder."
I can't say what the DSM 5 says about that, but it DOES say that gender dysphoria is indeed a mental disorder. Just because some extremists strong armed the editors of the new edition doesn't magically mean it's not a disorder anymore, sorry charlie.
…even though you clearly and self-admittedly don’t seem to know what DSM-5 says.
You lost all credibility by using WHO as a source. The DSM 5 was the standard until the activist crowd cudgeled the powers that be into changing the DSM 6 to reflect fantasy as "fact." Good try though...
What is “DSM 6”? Glad to hear you are happy with DSM-…
Thanks for your counterargument. My point is that wheelchair competitors generally don't demand to compete directly against the runners. Otherwise, they would mostly dominate both male and female runners in distances 800m to marathon.
Can you image wheelchair athletes collecting all the prize money and accolades at every competition? It'll be a cold day in hell before that ever happens. Yet, in the name of so-called fairness, real women (dare I say) are supposed to accept trans women dominating women's sports. I will always defend fairness in sports. And that's not fair.
MacFaden and her mother sued the school district because she had no one to compete against in HS. And she agreed to the condition that she could not score points for her team. Then she went to U of I, where she had other people to train with and compete against. Do you think she should not have been allowed to do what she did in HS?
Trans only category might work for college and above. That may not be practical at HS level. In all likelihood, it will be a solo time trial like MacFaden did before her lawsuit. That may still be the best solution. But if a wheelchair athlete could race as an exhibition participant, why can't a trans athlete do the same?
A transgender category will not work at any level. There are less than 50 transgender athletes in NCAA sports. Team sports are out of the question and it’s unlikely that even 2 would exist in the same event. What if there is a total of two tennis players and they attend schools on opposite coasts? With a sample of just two, it’s likely one of them would always win 6-0, 6-0.
"It doesn't say gender incongruence itself is mental disorder."
I can't say what the DSM 5 says about that, but it DOES say that gender dysphoria is indeed a mental disorder. Just because some extremists strong armed the editors of the new edition doesn't magically mean it's not a disorder anymore, sorry charlie.
…even though you clearly and self-admittedly don’t seem to know what DSM-5 says.
But you come across as though you don't know or you're deliberately glossing over the fact that the full name of the DSM-5 is Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition
This post was edited 19 seconds after it was posted.
Also, what the DSM-5 or ICD say is irrelevant because many trans activist now say it's transphobic to assume that having "gender dysphoria," "gender incongruence" or any other sort of psychologocial distress about one's sex or gender is a prerequisite for being transgender.
Not everyone who is transgender nowadays has experienced "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence" or any kind of discomfort with their bodily sex or any unhappiness over being boxed in by the bunch of sex stereotypes that constitute gender.
In fact, many today become transgender for a host of other reasons such as attention, the desire to be seen as special, and the pursuit of sexual pleasure, aka "gender euphoria."
Also, what the DSM-5 or ICD say is irrelevant because many trans activist now say it's transphobic to assume that having "gender dysphoria," "gender incongruence" or any other sort of psychologocial distress about one's sex or gender is a prerequisite for being transgender.
Not everyone who is transgender nowadays has experienced "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence" or any kind of discomfort with their bodily sex or any unhappiness over being boxed in by the bunch of sex stereotypes that constitute gender.
In fact, many today become transgender for a host of other reasons such as attention, the desire to be seen as special, and the pursuit of sexual pleasure, aka "gender euphoria."
"It doesn't say gender incongruence itself is mental disorder."
I can't say what the DSM 5 says about that, but it DOES say that gender dysphoria is indeed a mental disorder. Just because some extremists strong armed the editors of the new edition doesn't magically mean it's not a disorder anymore, sorry charlie.
…even though you clearly and self-admittedly don’t seem to know what DSM-5 says.
It's a mental disorder. If people are willing to commit suicide from gender dysphoria, it's a mental disorder. You can try and play semantic power games, but it fits the criteria clear as day.
Please explain to us that a mental condition which supposedly requires one to take hormone blockers and get reconstructive surgeries to help treat (why would any treatments at all be required if it weren't a disorder) in order to avoid suicide, is not a mental disorder.
Also, what the DSM-5 or ICD say is irrelevant because many trans activist now say it's transphobic to assume that having "gender dysphoria," "gender incongruence" or any other sort of psychologocial distress about one's sex or gender is a prerequisite for being transgender.
Not everyone who is transgender nowadays has experienced "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence" or any kind of discomfort with their bodily sex or any unhappiness over being boxed in by the bunch of sex stereotypes that constitute gender.
In fact, many today become transgender for a host of other reasons such as attention, the desire to be seen as special, and the pursuit of sexual pleasure, aka "gender euphoria."
The poll only surveys people who identify as trans. Detransitioners don't get polled.
Also some interesting perspectives. I'm sure the moral and intellectual authorities on here will label her as a radical, alt-right transphobe, though even though she originally set out to help trans people.
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Sara Stockton explore her past as a clinician in the field of Transgender care, how she helped co-author the processes by which ge...
…even though you clearly and self-admittedly don’t seem to know what DSM-5 says.
It's a mental disorder. If people are willing to commit suicide from gender dysphoria, it's a mental disorder. You can try and play semantic power games, but it fits the criteria clear as day.
Please explain to us that a mental condition which supposedly requires one to take hormone blockers and get reconstructive surgeries to help treat (why would any treatments at all be required if it weren't a disorder) in order to avoid suicide, is not a mental disorder.
If people around you were constantly gaslighting you, asking you to prove you are male (have you ever had to do it in life?) for competition or bathroom use, bullying you for how you naturally are, saying you are deluding yourself and are mentally ill, you might well also go crazy and want to kill yourself. People who are albinos or people who are homosexual were known to have suicidal ideation because of how society around them used to treat them, but you wouldn’t call that a mental disorder.
Trans people can lead satisfying lives surrounded by people who are understanding towards and accepting of their condition.
It's a mental disorder. If people are willing to commit suicide from gender dysphoria, it's a mental disorder. You can try and play semantic power games, but it fits the criteria clear as day.
Please explain to us that a mental condition which supposedly requires one to take hormone blockers and get reconstructive surgeries to help treat (why would any treatments at all be required if it weren't a disorder) in order to avoid suicide, is not a mental disorder.
If people around you were constantly gaslighting you, asking you to prove you are male (have you ever had to do it in life?) for competition or bathroom use, bullying you for how you naturally are, saying you are deluding yourself and are mentally ill, you might well also go crazy and want to kill yourself. People who are albinos or people who are homosexual were known to have suicidal ideation because of how society around them used to treat them, but you wouldn’t call that a mental disorder.
Trans people can lead satisfying lives surrounded by people who are understanding towards and accepting of their condition.
I'm talking about pre-transition people. No, the argument always has been that the feelings associated with the incongruency themselves were the source of suicidal ideations. If the distress of feeling like you're in the wrong body is so great that you feel the need to surgically alter your genitals and completely change your hormonal profile to stop it, then you have a mental disorder.
The motivations behind declassifying gender identity disorder as a mental illness is more political than it is clinical.
Congratulations on being a "normal" parent of "normal" daughters. You should be really proud of your normalcy.
Unfortunaely, some people are not as lucky as you and your daugthers. This person's mother had a traffic accident while being pregnant, and had to go through all kinds of tests at a hospital. She was told the baby would be a boy, so they were preparing for a boy's name and all that.
And then, they were completely surprised when this person was born.
Good for you that you and your daughters do not have to go through all this.
Yeah, lots of strong stands on these threads, but things are a lot different when you have to confront these issues in real life. If you are the actual parent of a non binary or trans or intersex child and have to tell them, no, they can’t can’t compete in the category in which they identify as belonging. That’s not easy and takes empathy to see how hard that would be. Wejo, you ready for that if it happens in your family? I’m sure you are. Yes, I realize it also would be hard to console your child who was out of the medals because of a trans athlete won instead. Everybody should visualize these scenarios before posting, especially when dealing with children (middle school, high school athletes).
1) Let's keep intersex separate.
2) Considering I have 2 daughters I don't think they'll be wanting to compete on the men's teams once they hit puberty.
Isn't that how it usually works? If my daughters wanted to compete vs men, they wouldn't do as well but most men I think wouldn't care too much as they wouldn't have an unfair advantage.
Nikki Hiltz is transgender yet competes in the women's category. So I assume that is what my daughters would do. That shows people can compete in categories that don't align with their identity right? Or what am I missing?
3) Now, if I had a son and he wanted to compete in the women's category I would tell him the the truth. That he is not a biological female and will never be a biological female. That elite sport is divided on sex and he has an unfair advantage and will never be a female but is free to dress and live his life how he wants. I would not tell him he was assigned the wrong sex at birth. He is a male and will always be a male and I think helping him understand the truth would be beneficial to him. I would tell him gender is something different.
If society wants to start using different words for these categories fine. Open and female, but for the vast majority of people until the last couple of years women was synonymous with female and is what people mean when they say "women's sports.".
Also, what the DSM-5 or ICD say is irrelevant because many trans activist now say it's transphobic to assume that having "gender dysphoria," "gender incongruence" or any other sort of psychologocial distress about one's sex or gender is a prerequisite for being transgender.
Not everyone who is transgender nowadays has experienced "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence" or any kind of discomfort with their bodily sex or any unhappiness over being boxed in by the bunch of sex stereotypes that constitute gender.
In fact, many today become transgender for a host of other reasons such as attention, the desire to be seen as special, and the pursuit of sexual pleasure, aka "gender euphoria."
The findings of that survey by the Washington Post and Kaiser Family Foundation don't refute or contradict the points I made; they lend credence to them.
The Washington Post-Kaiser Family Foundation survey found that only 32% of adult survey respondents who identify as trans reported feeling that their "gender identity was different from the sex they were assigned at birth" when they were young children before age 11, or puberty. 34% reported that they first realized they had gender identity issues between 11 and 17.
The WaPo article doesn't mention the what the deal with other 34% of trans survey respondents is. But presumably they decided their "gender identity was different from the sex they were assigned at birth" during adulthood.
Moreover, the survey found that the vast majority of people who identify as trans in the US nowadays do not have an opposite-sex gender identity, and only a minority use self-labels indidicative of a desire to be seen as the opposite sex:
The poll reveals that most adults who identify as trans or transgender prefer the terms “nonbinary” (40 percent) or “gender non-conforming” (22 percent), while 22 percent identify as a “trans woman” and 12 percent identify as a “trans man.”
The survey also found that whilst a higher proportion of people who identify as trans or transgender said they had unhappy childhoods compared to the rest of the population, a majority say the opposite:
over half of trans adults say they had a happy childhood (53 percent).
All of this backs up my point that people who have trans gender identities today do so for a host of different reasons. It's erroneous to assume everyone who is trans is trying to resolve or ameliorate the longstanding, deeply-felt kind of distress, unease and unhappiness with their sex/gender and the sort of cross-sex identification that used to be known as "gender identity incongruence" and "gender idenity disorder" but is now called "gender dysphoria."
The fact is, lots of people who are trans today do not fit the stereotyped, cookie-cutter image of people who've felt they're the opposite sex since early childhood. Nor have they all suffered deep-seated distress about their sex/gender their whole lives, or even most of their lives.
Just because the survey respondents reported that "transitioning made them more satisfied with their lives" doesn't mean they were all dissatisfied and miserable before, much less since they were little kids.
Also, there is no unanimity amongst "trans people" today about what "transitioning" means and entails:
The Post-KFF survey finds that trans adults hold widely different ideas about what it means to transition. While most trans people have socially transitioned, meaning they’ve changed their clothing, names or pronouns, far fewer have medically transitioned. Less than a third have used hormone treatments or puberty blockers, and about 1 in 6 have undergone gender-affirming surgery or other surgical treatment to change their physical appearance.
2) Considering I have 2 daughters I don't think they'll be wanting to compete on the men's teams once they hit puberty.
Isn't that how it usually works? If my daughters wanted to compete vs men, they wouldn't do as well but most men I think wouldn't care too much as they wouldn't have an unfair advantage.
Nikki Hiltz is transgender yet competes in the women's category. So I assume that is what my daughters would do. That shows people can compete in categories that don't align with their identity right? Or what am I missing?
3) Now, if I had a son and he wanted to compete in the women's category I would tell him the the truth. That he is not a biological female and will never be a biological female. That elite sport is divided on sex and he has an unfair advantage and will never be a female but is free to dress and live his life how he wants. I would not tell him he was assigned the wrong sex at birth. He is a male and will always be a male and I think helping him understand the truth would be beneficial to him. I would tell him gender is something different.
If society wants to start using different words for these categories fine. Open and female, but for the vast majority of people until the last couple of years women was synonymous with female and is what people mean when they say "women's sports.".
I'm ok with rules that bar trans girls/woman from competing at a certain level of competition regardless of hormone therapy, etc. I would put the line at NCAA/pro sports. Regardless, I just wish people would approach this issue with empathy and sensitivity all around, especially when dealing with children.
I am interested in your definition of "elite" sports. You use this term consistently and it suggests that you agree that rules barring trans girls from competing in middle school or even hs, or from hobby jogger master races and the like, do more harm than good or are just not worth it? Do you really care if there is a hobby jogger trans woman winning a local Turkey Trot with a 19 minute 5K?
Also, Nikki is NOT transgender, they are non-binary. Definitely different situation.
The findings of that survey by the Washington Post and Kaiser Family Foundation don't refute or contradict the points I made; they lend credence to them.
The Washington Post-Kaiser Family Foundation survey found that only 32% of adult survey respondents who identify as trans reported feeling that their "gender identity was different from the sex they were assigned at birth" when they were young children before age 11, or puberty. 34% reported that they first realized they had gender identity issues between 11 and 17.
The WaPo article doesn't mention the what the deal with other 34% of trans survey respondents is. But presumably they decided their "gender identity was different from the sex they were assigned at birth" during adulthood.
Moreover, the survey found that the vast majority of people who identify as trans in the US nowadays do not have an opposite-sex gender identity, and only a minority use self-labels indidicative of a desire to be seen as the opposite sex:
The poll reveals that most adults who identify as trans or transgender prefer the terms “nonbinary” (40 percent) or “gender non-conforming” (22 percent), while 22 percent identify as a “trans woman” and 12 percent identify as a “trans man.”
The survey also found that whilst a higher proportion of people who identify as trans or transgender said they had unhappy childhoods compared to the rest of the population, a majority say the opposite:
over half of trans adults say they had a happy childhood (53 percent).
All of this backs up my point that people who have trans gender identities today do so for a host of different reasons. It's erroneous to assume everyone who is trans is trying to resolve or ameliorate the longstanding, deeply-felt kind of distress, unease and unhappiness with their sex/gender and the sort of cross-sex identification that used to be known as "gender identity incongruence" and "gender idenity disorder" but is now called "gender dysphoria."
The fact is, lots of people who are trans today do not fit the stereotyped, cookie-cutter image of people who've felt they're the opposite sex since early childhood. Nor have they all suffered deep-seated distress about their sex/gender their whole lives, or even most of their lives.
Just because the survey respondents reported that "transitioning made them more satisfied with their lives" doesn't mean they were all dissatisfied and miserable before, much less since they were little kids.
Also, there is no unanimity amongst "trans people" today about what "transitioning" means and entails:
The Post-KFF survey finds that trans adults hold widely different ideas about what it means to transition. While most trans people have socially transitioned, meaning they’ve changed their clothing, names or pronouns, far fewer have medically transitioned. Less than a third have used hormone treatments or puberty blockers, and about 1 in 6 have undergone gender-affirming surgery or other surgical treatment to change their physical appearance.
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