Which is why assessments are crucial and there is no 1 size fits all program. Deadlifting may help some but not help others. We also don't know how he progressed to lift this much, did he start with deadlifts or other exercises, if deadlifts which type and how much weight.
I’m going to guess that he progressed his deadlift by… deadlifting. no one is saying “don’t do assessments” or to follow a particular program. funny enough, there are no “non-responders” to lifting. There’s poor programming which leads to negative adaptations. You can listen to MO’s strength coach talk about their program on Runnerspace. Look up Dave Mchenry.
You might not be advocating following a program but others are stating this. The idea that any exercise is beneficial implies this, as the proper answer should be might be beneficial. Its foolish for someone to see Mo deadlift and think, oh I should be doing that if that particular person has no clue how to do it correctly. I had many HS kids who needed to do bridges, hip thrusts and other hinge exercises before they were introduced to deadlifts, including a 9th grade 45' shot putter. He was big but couldn't hinge properly.
The OP's original concern was that he, a distance runner, might be doing the same program as football players. Hopefully that won't be the case even if they both to some of the same exercises. I say hopefully because there are instances of college programs where everyone does the same which is why the USTFCCCA developed a track and field strength certification.
And we all wonder why Americans have been sucking for the past 40 to 50 years well maybe we have all been I’m too obsessed with barbell training instead of just running. I like barbell training btw but not for running your dough heads
They compared strength work with placebo. That's great. It shows a benefit. But what I'd like to see, is three arms: A timed amount of strength work (weights), versus an arm where they add an equal amount of additional time spent running only, versus placebo.
This would be to answer the question: If I have a limited amount of time to add either time doing weights, or running more, but not both, which will most efficiently improve my race times?
Get off letsrun for an hour a week and add some lifting to your routine. I've yet to meet an actual person, in real life, who doesn't have a lot of spare time in their schedule. Most sports require 2-3x as much time training when compared to running.
The first hour of lifting per week is probably going to be more beneficial than the 8th+ hour of running.
I think we agree on 99% of this subject and are just spinning our wheels arguing about the 1% minutiae we disagree on. As I posted already, I do strength work 3 days per week (push ups, pull-ups, upright rows, inverted rows and weighted lunges) and I agree it has benefits. I'm just not sure it makes me any faster. If it does, great! But I personally, do it for other reasons.
I highly doubt those motions have any utility in your overall speed in fact maybe counterproductive. But maybe your arms and back look particularly good after a good rowing session and your wife lets you the right way, hell... that’s a plus!! Doing more rows will in fact make you a faster runner
And we all wonder why Americans have been sucking for the past 40 to 50 years well maybe we have all been I’m too obsessed with barbell training instead of just running. I like barbell training btw but not for running your dough heads
Americans sucked for a long time because they were running low mileage and just doing speed work - no threshold or steady state work. "Long slow distance makes slow distance runners" was the mantra. They could have used some gym work, too, but they were neglecting the key components of, you know of getting good.
You’re really trying to make a case and you do a good job I’ll give you that. I was very impressed by your arguments and hard work. You got all your grammar right you hit me with a few jabs “dingus” wow that’s a good one gee willikers. it’s not about isolation of one group but of multiple groups sure it’s a compound, any dingus knows what a compound lift is. but what about the other side of that compound where your foot lands and quads have to absorb the shock. elite runners are god gifted the running ability it’s what talent is, they are wired from top to bottom to run hard and fast. Yes you hobby joggers and sage groupers should maybe learn to rebalance your muscles maybe you have worn a tool belt for half a decade, or you sit in a car /desk for half the day. you are the guys that need weight training. not an African or elite athlete who lives and breathes running who was born to do this.
Go 8 seconds into the video and please tell me what Mo Farah is doing.
I would recommend RDL’s over deadlifting. You will get the same benefits without the risk of injury deadlift comes with.
What about the trap bar (hex bar) for deadlifting? Almost the same benefits as traditional barbell deadlifting but with lower risk of back injury (though less lower back development) and no scrapes to the knees or shins or lifting the bar into the man-parts.
1. The RDL will overload the lower back and hamstrings far greater than a traditional deadlift. It's not fun running a sore back or tight hamstrings.
2. I don't get this fascination with weight lifting injuries here.....from a group of people participating in the exercise with the highest injury rate (running). Just stop.
3. Trap Bar Deadlifts are great and I think a preferred deadlift variation for any athletic population. Note: Football players, who as a whole desire strength and power almost universally DO NOT DEADLIFT. They clean and they squat.
4. You have to balance weight lifting with your MAIN training stimulus. So why perform movements that will impede that (Heavy RDL, Heavy Straight Bar Deadlift).
1. The RDL will overload the lower back and hamstrings far greater than a traditional deadlift. It's not fun running a sore back or tight hamstrings.
2. I don't get this fascination with weight lifting injuries here.....from a group of people participating in the exercise with the highest injury rate (running). Just stop.
3. Trap Bar Deadlifts are great and I think a preferred deadlift variation for any athletic population. Note: Football players, who as a whole desire strength and power almost universally DO NOT DEADLIFT. They clean and they squat.
4. You have to balance weight lifting with your MAIN training stimulus. So why perform movements that will impede that (Heavy RDL, Heavy Straight Bar Deadlift).
Front Squat. Trap Bar Deadlift.
Alan
Alan, would you recommend doing something a little less taxing for middle distance and distance runners in terms of reps and sets? Something like 3x5 instead of 5x5? You mentioned “rampin-up” in another post. What does that look like in terms of sets and reps?
1. The RDL will overload the lower back and hamstrings far greater than a traditional deadlift. It's not fun running a sore back or tight hamstrings.
2. I don't get this fascination with weight lifting injuries here.....from a group of people participating in the exercise with the highest injury rate (running). Just stop.
3. Trap Bar Deadlifts are great and I think a preferred deadlift variation for any athletic population. Note: Football players, who as a whole desire strength and power almost universally DO NOT DEADLIFT. They clean and they squat.
4. You have to balance weight lifting with your MAIN training stimulus. So why perform movements that will impede that (Heavy RDL, Heavy Straight Bar Deadlift).
Front Squat. Trap Bar Deadlift.
Alan
Alan, would you recommend doing something a little less taxing for middle distance and distance runners in terms of reps and sets? Something like 3x5 instead of 5x5? You mentioned “rampin-up” in another post. What does that look like in terms of sets and reps?
Runners need to progress and get stronger while also limiting fatigue. Runner's don't need to maximize strength gains. They need to optimize strength gains in relation to the more important running training.
Ramping is simply increasing the weight from set to set until you reach 1 max set of your prescribed rep range, lets say 4-6 reps. So the only really taxing set is the last set. You could also call this max effort training.
The ramp shouldn't last more than 4-5 sets:
Cross-Arm Front Squat:
Dynamic Warmup
Bar x 10
65 x 5
95 x 5
115 x 5
135 x 4
1:00 rest between each until the last 1-2 sets. 2-3:00+ rest between those.
135 x 4 was a max effort. As the weeks go on stay at 135 until you can do 6 reps, then add 10lbs and that should knock you down to 4-5.
The jumps are all relative to strength level. A strength athlete might do jumps in 25s and 45s...95, 135, 185, 225, 275...there's a joke about gym bros only knowing how to count by 25s and 45s...)
2. I don't get this fascination with weight lifting injuries here.....from a group of people participating in the exercise with the highest injury rate (running). Just stop.
I've hurt myself a million different ways running. I've taken myself out for weeks due to overuse, tendonitis, etc.
The worst I've ever done with weightlifting is small tweaks that made me a little sore or made me back off for a couple days.
why don't you hobby joggers deadlift one way or the other to see if it helps. get back to us in 3 months or so.
It helped me personally as an anecdotal data point. Adding in a few months of dedicated weight training — primarily increasingly heavy squats and deadlifts — improved my vo2max by nearly 10%, added on ~10 lbs of posterior chain lean mass, measurably improved my running, and I suspect has been at least in part responsible for staying running injury free (touch wood, though I did have minor weight training related muscle or joint strains along the way that would heal with a week or so of rest or reduced weights). YMMV.
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